Hinge and Hold versus Bounce?

[MattM]

FYI to anyone who is interested I just pulled out my secrets of the short game dvd and after watching his explanation for a while I think the hold part he is referring to isn't actually the angle.  He keeps talking about keeping the leading edge and bounce constant for as long as possible by HOLDING the club and arm at the same speed through impact.

He also talks about in the longer chip shots section as being the same as a chip but with a longer back swing and mentions that at finish your arm and the club should form a straight line.

As he gets to 40-50 yard shots the arm club combo will break slightly at finish.  He says that's not important what is important is that the arm and club speed remain constant and the leading edge and bounce are constant through impact.

That is directly through his dvd.

BTW Erik I just tried to edit my last post and it told me permission was denied.....

[MattM]

Matt I watched Erik's quickie pitching video in April and in a few hours learned it. I honestly feel I've mastered it in less than a season. I'm not discrediting Phil's video I've never seen it. But do you think that video is popular because of the method he teaches or because its Phil? I have tried the hinge and hold(saw a YouTube video on it) and I like that method for chipping but its a much more precise shot for pitching than Erik's method. Obviously Phil knows what he is doing and he is one of the best short game players ever but that doesn't mean he's the only one who has an idea of how to hit good pitch shots?

I absolutely agree with you.  There are different ways to pitch and teach etc.  I just didn't like the part where Erik is saying that Phil does a disservice to people.  P.S. You really need to see the whole thing to try to learn it.  He has a slightly different explanation for the longer shots.  That said I had the video two days before my round and I was doing the basic chips and pitches.  It was also making the ball check for me!  His sand shot lesson was also very helpful.  I even had a post about it way back when I bought the video!

[iacas]

I can tell you that anyone reading this thread is going to read you saying that Phil does a disservice to people and just tune out.

That would be to their (small) detriment, but they're free to do as they want.

I will point out that in your entire (final?) post on this, you failed to address the simple point I'm making that using the word "hold" in the manner in which Phil uses it is at best a poor description of what he's doing.

That is and remains my only point in discussing the word "hold." Phil in fact hits most of his pitch shots very much like I teach players of all levels. Millions of DVDs sold also doesn't mean that every one of those people have applied his methods - some may have tried to "hold" using the more common definitions of the word and chunked the ball like crazy before giving up.

You can say this is "holier than thou" type stuff, but I'm kind of tired of that sort of come-back. It's often used by people who are losing the argument (or at least who have given up on arguing the topic), so they resort to an ad hominem against me rather than actually discussing the simple facts. If I'm wrong, I'm a big boy, and can take it. But being right frequently doesn't make me "holier than thou." It just makes me someone who pays attention, is good at what he does, and who appreciates the power of words and is constantly striving to find the best words for things.

You need to keep in mind that even though you think you have a better explanation of a pitch shot or that your method is better etc.... Phil has sold MILLIONS of these videos as well as his books…

B does not disprove A. McDonald's has sold bajillions of cheeseburgers, but that doesn't make them better than a Ruth's Chris steak.

Phil has also not spent a lot of time teaching. He's a million times a better player than I am, or even Dave, or countless other people that I can name, but a great player doesn't necessarily make a great instructor.

BTW you pitching off concrete really says nothing about your method. Can someone who has only been playing a few years who you taught that pitch to a year ago do that?

I've taught my method to people and they can do it later that day, so… yes. Not that this has much to do with anything.

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My entire point with you summarized in a seven-word sentence: "Hold" is a poor choice of words.

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FYI to anyone who is interested I just pulled out my secrets of the short game dvd and after watching his explanation for a while I think the hold part he is referring to isn't actually the angle.  He keeps talking about keeping the leading edge and bounce constant for as long as possible by HOLDING the club and arm at the same speed through impact.

The clubhead is moving faster than his arm. If they were moving the same speed the angle would remain the same.

BTW Erik I just tried to edit my last post and it told me permission was denied.....

You have nine 18 minutes. The posts earlier were inside that window. Your most recent two posts are inside that window, yet were again two posts. :P

I just didn't like the part where Erik is saying that Phil does a disservice to people.

I think it's a poor word choice and thus does a disservice to people. If I use a word that is more accurately the opposite of the word I should use, such as "hold" when I mean very nearly the opposite of "hold," I expect that people will call me out on it as well, and then I can improve how I teach.

The alliteration is nice, but that doesn't change the possibility that the majority of people watching will misinterpret "hold" as something very different than what Phil is actually doing.

P.S. You really need to see the whole thing to try to learn it.  He has a slightly different explanation for the longer shots.  That said I had the video two days before my round and I was doing the basic chips and pitches.  It was also making the ball check for me!  His sand shot lesson was also very helpful.  I even had a post about it way back when I bought the video!

I'm glad it's helped you.

Again, since I added responses to your later responses, I'll say this again: my entire point can be summarized in a seven-word sentence: "Hold" is a poor choice of word(s).

Have a good evening.

[mvmac]

FYI to anyone who is interested I just pulled out my secrets of the short game dvd and after watching his explanation for a while I think the hold part he is referring to isn't actually the angle.  He keeps talking about keeping the leading edge and bounce constant for as long as possible by HOLDING the club and arm at the same speed through impact.

Not sure what that means.  How do you "hold" speed?  Again the player is describing something he feels, not what is really going on.  Hold is a bad word to use.  Most would take it to mean bending the trail wrist back and holding that angle, not letting it release.

BTW Erik I just tried to edit my last post and it told me permission was denied.....

I think there is a nine an 18 minute window to do it after you post.  Just for future notice, please try to keep all your comments in one post rather than 3 in a row.  If you want to add something a few minutes later then you can edit it.

[iacas]

Small point of correction: the editing limit is 18 minutes for a member of the "Established" group. :)

[JetFan1983]

Agreed "hold" is a really bad word choice here. The fact that we have to guess at what Phil means by "hold" is pretty telling in of itself.

"Hold" is a pure feel term, and using that kind of language is a really bad way to teach millions of golfers.

IMO, "hold" pretty clearly means "don't flip before impact, you dummies." But the way I interpreted that when I first started playing golf was "hold what I'm being told to hinge." And that's clearly terrible advice.

I'm really surprised it's so taboo for some people to question the advice of great players. Perhaps that topic is best left for another thread though.

[Phil McGleno]

Hold is a lousy term there-I agree. Few shortgame shots are hit with a shaft leaning backwards-Some are, most arent. Phils actual motion is similar to most good pitchers and chippers, and feels are bad ways to try to teach the masses-.

[MattM]

Not sure what that means.  How do you "hold" speed?  Again the player is describing something he feels, not what is really going on.  Hold is a bad word to use.  Most would take it to mean bending the trail wrist back and holding that angle, not letting it release.

I think there is a nine an 18 minute window to do it after you post.  Just for future notice, please try to keep all your comments in one post rather than 3 in a row.  If you want to add something a few minutes later then you can edit it.

Thanks for pointing out the editing issue.  To answer your question....his issue is that on a chip or pitch if someone releases the club before impact then the club is moving faster than the arm.

In the beginning he mentions that when people get flippy then you can't be consistent with the distances because you are adding another variable I.E. the speed of the flipping motion.

I just watched the first part again.

Erik I think this explains some of what he is getting at.  He mentions that there are two ways of teaching chips.  One pendulum which he hates and the other is the "lock your wrists chip."  He says that is absurd because people would be coming in so shallow you couldn't hit the ball consistently.  He says you want to get the club up quickly then into the ground aggressively.

He wants to hinge quickly creating a steep angle of attach then "hold" or accelerate going through.  He definitely doesn't talk about locking wrists.  He says that when he says hold it he means accelerating the club by keeping his hand moving all the way through and trying not to let the club move faster than the hand.

[Phil McGleno]

That is what happens when he pitches the ball-He is releasing the angle and the clubhead is moving faster than the arm-Doesnt matter if you mean linear speed or RPMs. The clubhead is moving faster in both.[quote name="MattM" url="/t/69334/hinge-and-hold-vers-using-the-bounce/54#post_909616"]Thanks for pointing out the editing issue.  To answer your question.... his issue is that on a chip or pitch if someone releases the club before impact then the club is moving faster than the arm. [/quote] So-In other words as someone said-A feel that isnt what is actually happening.

[MattM]

Ok so I posted the part where he talks about the longer swing causing more speed and making the wrists release... Way to not quote that to make your point. On the longer chips he says that as long as the hand stays ahead of the club through impact you are fine. He then demostrates what he is talking about. Btw for flops he talks about releasw and utilizingbounce. Its a different swing.

[iacas]

Ok so I posted the part where he talks about the longer swing causing more speed and making the wrists release... Way to not quote that to make your point. On the longer chips he says that as long as the hand stays ahead of the club through impact you are fine. He then demostrates what he is talking about.

Btw for flops he talks about releasw and utilizingbounce. Its a different swing.

I don't need to quote it. Why would I?

"Hinge and hold" - specifically "hold" - is a poor choice of word(s) to describe ANY of the swings he makes (outside of the simplest, shortest chip shot and some of his putting strokes).

In NO swing he makes does he truly "hold" anything (except the grip end of the club , and possibly, his breath).

Again, I'm glad his DVDs helped you. Good. I'm all for good instruction that helps people. But I didn't start this thread to bag on Phil (I didn't start this thread at all), and I've stated my opinion on why "hold" is a poor choice of words. Words matter, and an instructional DVD (in my opinion) should not require the watcher to carefully watch the DVD to notice that when Phil says "hold" he doesn't mean to use any of the common definitions.

I'm happy to be done if you are. My only point to you remains in the bold above. It's my opinion. If you disagree, that's fine, because I've explained WHY I have that opinion a few times now, and you've not convinced me to change it.

[dchoye]

I read this thread and view Phil's DVD a few times.

I agree with Erik that the Hinge and Hold is specific to Phil's own chipping method and has nothing to do with bounce when he describes his other flop/lob/pitch/sand shots around the green.

my take on the "hold" that he Phil "holds" the face angle when he hinges and delofts.

His chipping style resembles his putting style , forward press, hands leading, etc. nothing to do with bounce.

I also agree that pitching-chipping is a gradient

I think it's more of an art than a science.

What confuses me was the use of the word"chip" is so varied in among players.

In the old days before the LW  was used around the green, the "chip" use to be taught as a lower loft club like a 6-7 iron , pick a spot on the green just beyond the fringe and hit that spot.

[mvmac]

I also agree that pitching-chipping is a gradient

I think it's more of an art than a science.

What confuses me was the use of the word"chip" is so varied in among players.

In the old days before the LW  was used around the green, the "chip" use to be taught as a lower loft club like a 6-7 iron , pick a spot on the green just beyond the fringe and hit that spot.

Yeah chip is basically a short stroke (almost a putting motion), leading edge comes more into play while pitch is using the bounce and the clubhead is swinging a much greater distance (even if it's a short shot).

[JetFan1983]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dchoye

I also agree that pitching-chipping is a gradient

I think it's more of an art than a science.

What confuses me was the use of the word"chip" is so varied in among players.

In the old days before the LW  was used around the green, the "chip" use to be taught as a lower loft club like a 6-7 iron , pick a spot on the green just beyond the fringe and hit that spot.

Yeah chip is basically a short stroke, using more of the leading edge while pitch is using the bounce and the clubhead is swinging a much greater distance (even if it's a short shot).

A bit off topic, but when I stopped using the leading edge 99% of the time around the greens, my short game became good. Just saying. This includes "chips" (which are actually kind of like pitches now for me, but not really... I don't know what you call them) with short irons and PW, GW.

Phil would have been better off just teaching everyone how to use the bounce and why that was key. What are the setup requirements? Ball position? What's the basic motion? How does the motion vary based on different desired trajectories? When should we use the leading edge, if at all?

That would have been a better way to teach people IMO.

That said, it sure is fun watching him do his wizardry on that DVD. It's entertaining, if nothing else. Plus, if you actually know how to play green side shots, you can "interpret" what he's trying to tell you, and that can be useful. Beginners though are kind of left in a lurch because they don't have the background to translate what he's saying.

[MattM]

Ok so.....Let me take a step back and describe it another way and picking apart the language. So you admit that you are saying that Phil doesnt "hold" anything? The word hold is useless in your mind? The definition of the word hold is: to keep or detain someone or something. Ok so we have the definition of hold. Phil says to break the writs early and accelerate/hold. In every picture I've seen and the slow motion video on his chips (except for his flop shots) he is absolutely HOLDING (keeping) his hand in FRONT of the CLUBFACE until impact. In this case using your previous definition of the term HOLD his hand is CONSTANTLY held in front of the clubface to impact. If I told ANYONE that was trying to learn chipping (or pitching) they would immediately understand what i'm saying. Especially if (just like Phil) I said NOT TO LOCK THE WRISTS just make sure that your are HOLDING your hand in front of the clubface into impact......And then pointing out that on the longer QUICKER swings that the wrists would break AFTER impact and that is not important as you are only worried about HOLDING (keeping) your hands in front of the clubface into impact..... BTW DCHOYE you clearly did NOT see his DVD if you think he didn't mention the part about actually breaking the wrists early for a flop shot and using the boince. That's a big part of the video and if you are saying you didn't see it then you did not watch the video. Erik...I was talking to Phil Mcgleno about the quote thing. I was on my phone and couldn't quote him. That wasn't to you....

[Jakester23]

I was wondering how I know which club to chip with around the green? I'm pitching much more than chipping but I occasionally run into the situation where I'm on the fringe and decide to hit a chip and run. I don't do this often and was hoping there was a rule of thumb on when to use 8, 9 pw ect....

[iacas]

Ok so.....Let me take a step back and describe it another way and picking apart the language.

So you admit that you are saying that Phil doesnt "hold" anything? The word hold is useless in your mind? The definition of the word hold is: to keep or detain someone or something.

Ok so we have the definition of hold. Phil says to break the writs early and accelerate/hold. In every picture I've seen and the slow motion video on his chips (except for his flop shots) he is absolutely HOLDING (keeping) his hand in FRONT of the CLUBFACE until impact.

In this case using your previous definition of the term HOLD his hand is CONSTANTLY held in front of the clubface to impact.

If I told ANYONE that was trying to learn chipping (or pitching) they would immediately understand what i'm saying. Especially if (just like Phil) I said NOT TO LOCK THE WRISTS just make sure that your are HOLDING your hand in front of the clubface into impact......And then pointing out that on the longer QUICKER swings that the wrists would break AFTER impact and that is not important as you are only worried about HOLDING (keeping) your hands in front of the clubface into impact.....

BTW DCHOYE you clearly did NOT see his DVD if you think he didn't mention the part about actually breaking the wrists early for a flop shot and using the boince. That's a big part of the video and if you are saying you didn't see it then you did not watch the video.

Erik...I was talking to Phil Mcgleno about the quote thing. I was on my phone and couldn't quote him. That wasn't to you....

I've said this a few times already. Please read my posts above, because as of now, I'm done.

Almost all of Phil's motions (excluding the simplest, shortest of chips or putts) has him keeping SOME angle, but the actual angle or the amount of "hinge" is being thrown out for the entirety of the downswing and into the follow through. That's not "holding" THE "hinge" or THE angle. IMO it's a poor use of the word "hold" that's confusing.

I wouldn't tell you to "hold" something if I wanted you to constantly move it around or change the amount.

That's it.

[MattM]

So you are trying to interpate him as saying hold the angle but thats not what he is saying. He saying hold or keep tje hands in front of the clubface into impact and he does that.