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fr0sty

Standing in opponents line of putt.

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True Story :

Yesterday A and B were playing a match and both balls ended up on the green about 1' apart (A was further from the hole by several inches). If A had taken his normal putting stance he would have been standing on B's line of putt. A offered B the chance to go first, B accepted.

By my understanding of The Rules there is nothing improper with what was done but I'm curious what rights A or B had in this situation regarding Order of Play, "being entitled to the lie and line of putt when the ball came to rest", fairly taking a stance, and other considerations I may have missed.

Was A entitled to stand in B's line to play his ball? If so, was B entitled to restore his line of putt (or gain other relief) before playing himself?

Was A obligated to not stand on B's line of putt? If so, could B have refused to putt first and required A make his stroke with a modified stance?

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Originally Posted by fr0sty

True Story:

.

Was A entitled to stand in B's line to play his ball? If so, was B entitled to restore his line of putt (or gain other relief) before playing himself?

Yes A had that right.  B, or anyone else including A, could subsequently restore B's line.  There is a decision on this.

Was A obligated to not stand on B's line of putt? If so, could B have refused to putt first and required A make his stroke with a modified stance?

A can stand wherever he liked.  .

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Originally Posted by Dormie1360

There is a decision on this.

You mean: 16-1a/13 ? I wasn't sure whether A taking his stance would qualify as "a ccidentally step[ing] on and damag[ing] the player's line of putt". I guess the real emphasis is on accidental damage and not accidental stepping.

16-1a/13

Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

Q. An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player's line of putt. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable as the physical conditions were not altered with the intent of affecting the playing of the hole.

In equity (Rule 1-4 ), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition. The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii) . (Revised)

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Yes,the emphasis or point is:   In equity the player is entitled to the lie, line of play and stance that they had when their ball came to rest after stroke.

Accidental damage vs. intentional damage is ruled differently.  See decisions under Equity: Player is entitled.......

In your example however, Player A had a right....especially since it was match play, to putt first.

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Not to be picky but if the balls were about 1" apart how could one ball be several inches further from the hole than the other?  Not that that was very important to the question at hand but a curious thing none the less.

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Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Not to be picky but if the balls were about 1" apart how could one ball be several inches further from the hole than the other?  Not that that was very important to the question at hand but a curious thing none the less.

He said 1' as in one foot.

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Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Yes,the emphasis or point is:   In equity the player is entitled to the lie, line of play and stance that they had when their ball came to rest after stroke.

Accidental damage vs. intentional damage is ruled differently.  See decisions under Equity: Player is entitled.......

In your example however, Player A had a right....especially since it was match play, to putt first.

Is this a case where the equity consideration overrides the general prohibition against repairing spikemarks?

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Is this a case where the equity consideration overrides the general prohibition against repairing spikemarks?

Yes. the concept of having the same lie, stance, and line of play after your ball comes to rest overrides a number of other prohibitions as well.

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Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Yes. the concept of having the same lie, stance, and line of play after your ball comes to rest overrides a number of other prohibitions as well.

Thanks.

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Another common one is your ball lies on the fringe and another player plays from a bunker, depositing sand on and around your ball.  Normally, you would not be able to clean your ball while it was on the fringe, or remove sand on the fringe.  Under the principle of having your previous lie and line of play, you may do both.

Just make sure you mark your ball first......

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There was an article in the Boston Globe about Unwritten rules in the Pro game.  One of them is to never step over the hole because you may be stepping on a future line of putt.  I never heard of that one.

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

There was an article in the Boston Globe about Unwritten rules in the Pro game.  One of them is to never step over the hole because you may be stepping on a future line of putt.  I never heard of that one.

That would be a form of etiquette, not a rule, and pretty extreme even then.  They have that luxury because they never play in larger than threesomes.  With 4 players, that makes 8 places where you can't step, meaning that you can't ever approach the hole.  In my opinion it's a bit silly, but the pros are mostly pampered babies anyway.

I've never worried about it for my putts, because I always assume that I'm going to make the first one.

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Originally Posted by turtleback

Is this a case where the equity consideration overrides the general prohibition against repairing spikemarks?


I think this would only be true if the spike marks appeared after your ball came to rest. (somebody in your group made them after your ball came to rest)

If the spike marks were already there...tough luck rub?

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

There was an article in the Boston Globe about Unwritten rules in the Pro game.  One of them is to never step over the hole because you may be stepping on a future line of putt.  I never heard of that one.

I guess Boston Globe has never watched pro games, or perhaps pros do not read these unwritten rules.

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Originally Posted by scv76

I think this would only be true if the spike marks appeared after your ball came to rest. (somebody in your group made them after your ball came to rest)

If the spike marks were already there...tough luck rub?

Yes, that is what we were talking abut.  A condition that changed after your ball came to rest.

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Originally Posted by boogielicious

There was an article in the Boston Globe about Unwritten rules in the Pro game.  One of them is to never step over the hole because you may be stepping on a future line of putt.  I never heard of that one.

They may be confusing what's known as a "through line".  Players on tour will try to avoid walking on someone's line a couple of feet or so passed the hole.  Most tour players, if they miss, will be  passed the hole, on a line that was probably pretty close to the hole when it went by.  Other players in the group will try to avoid stepping in this area to prevent making any spike marks or other irregularities for the player's return putt.

It's just an etiquette thing for better players.

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the article quoted Jerry Kelly, so they weren't just making it up (like reporters often do).  Below is the start of the article.  I'd post the link, but you have to be a subscriber to see the whole thing.

NORTON — Golf on the PGA Tour is a game of power, precision, coordination, innovation, strength, skill, and occasionally stamina, among many other things.

It is not a contact sport, however, between its players. At least most of the time.

Jerry Kelly has a story, though. As a PGA Tour rookie, he lowered his shoulder and let playing partner Mac O’Grady have it while on the green. The problem? A few of golf’s unwritten rules.

Let Kelly explain.

“I’m a rookie, playing in Milwaukee with Jim Thorpe and Mac O’Grady. Those guys are on the green, about 30 feet away on opposite sides, and I’m about 40 feet away. I knock my putt up there and tap it in. As I reach and get my ball out of the hole I step over the hole, instead of walking around. Mac makes a beeline to me, comes right up to my shoulder and says, ‘Don’t ever walk over that hole, don’t ever do that,’ ” Kelly said. “I’m a little bit of an aggressive guy, and I take a little bit of offense to that. About three holes later, I’m looking at my putt from behind the hole, Mac’s on the other side, and I see that he’s going to walk over my line.

“Well, if I can’t walk over the hole, he can’t walk over my line. So I start walking toward him, he’s coming toward me, and I absolutely hammer him in the shoulder, then keep walking. I got him pretty good. Thorpy was laughing his [butt] off. I loved Mac’s eccentricities, he’s a good guy. I knew that you never step over somebody’s line, but I learned that day that you’re not supposed to step over the hole.”

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Jerry Kelly - definitely out of the circle.

FWIW, unless my fellow players are incredibly large, or the greens are unusually soft, I don't care if they walk in my line briefly. The old ritual of having to walk around behind everybody is getting old in the day of spikeless shoes.

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