2013 NFL Football

[newtogolf]

But if you believe that, then the extension of that view is that the chargers got screwed in game 1, (per the story in my link a few posts back) hence the steelers really didn't get screwed because they would have already been eliminated.

Yes, this call was missed, but so were several others that also impacted games, but since this one happened at the end of the last game of the season, it's the only one people want to remember.

The rules are the rules, you can't expect refs to use personal judgment beyond what they are already expected to determine if a rule violation had any real affect on the play.

The Chargers should be ashamed that they couldn't outright beat a Chiefs team that was sitting 8 starters, for that reason alone the Steelers were more deserving .

[iacas]

The Chargers should be ashamed that they couldn't outright beat a Chiefs team that was sitting 8 starters, for that reason alone the Steelers were more deserving .

They were sitting 20 starters. The eight listed were simply the highest profile ones. Their entire starting defense and nine starting offensive members were sitting out that game for KC.

[Golfingdad]

The rules are the rules, you can't expect refs to use personal judgment beyond what they are already expected to determine if a rule violation had any real affect on the play.   The Chargers should be ashamed that they couldn't outright beat a Chiefs team that was sitting 8 starters, for that reason alone the Steelers were more deserving :-D .

Again, I'm not saying the rules need to be made more complicated. I'm also not disagreeing that it was a blown call. (Except for my being "technical" with Erik yesterday ;)). All I am saying is this missed call - this TYPE of missed call, something that didn't affect the actual play on the field - does not bother me that much. This is actually quite comparable to the tiger BMW situation that led to our discussion of replay. There I argued it wasn't fair to the guys on tv all the time because similar infractions by guys not on tv would go uncalled. Here I'm arguing that this call is one of several missed during the year that affected a game outcome (including one that I keep repeating that is directly related to this situation that you all keep ignoring ;)) so it just isn't a big deal to me. Many others say rules are rules , and Erik says any extra correct call is "closer to the truth." At least we're all consistent. :)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

I agree with you that the infraction had zero effect on the kicker. But a rule is a rule. And from one of the camera angles, it was clear that one of the refs was standing right behind the part of the formation with the seven players. He's gotta call that regardless. I shed no tears for the stinkin' Steelers and they really have nobody else to blame but themselves for their plight because of their awful start, but they got screwed.

But if you believe that, then the extension of that view is that the chargers got screwed in game 1, (per the story in my link a few posts back) hence the steelers really didn't get screwed because they would have already been eliminated.

Yes, this call was missed, but so were several others that also impacted games, but since this one happened at the end of the last game of the season, it's the only one people want to remember.

There is a big difference, even though you don't seem to want to admit it.  This is your earlier comment:

Quote:

Missed calls like that at the end of the game bother me very little because I recognize that there are missed calls all throughout the game (any game) that could have mattered just as much (there's no way of knowing).  Further, there are calls all season that could potentially end up meaning just as much.  One example:  The Chargers lost to the Titans early in the season on a touchdown on, basically, the last play of the game.  The Titans receiver pushed off and should have been called for interference but wasn't.  Had they made that call, we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Pass interference is either missed or it's called when it didn't actually happen on a regular basis because it is so often a judgement call.  It's dependent on the viewing angle of the official.  I've seen at least seen a half dozen facemask fouls this season which were not called (and at least one that was penalized, but didn't actually happen), yet looked quite obvious on screen.  When the action is occurring, everything happens so fast that if the official happens to blink at the wrong time, he'll miss it.  Those calls are going to be a problem for as long as they depend primarily on the officials on the field for regulating the game.  I believe that the game really has gotten too fast for real time referees on action calls.

In the blown call with the Chiefs, that simply isn't the case.  It is nothing more than a matter of counting, one of the most basic parts of the official's job, and during a time when the players are all static.  An NFL official should be able to recognize an illegal formation just by looking at it.  An official who can't count to 7 shouldn't even be on the field - certainly not at such a critical juncture in the game and the season.

Receivers push off a lot and get away with it.  Most of those big strong receivers that the sports media loves to gush about get the window of separation by pushing off from the usually much smaller DB.  Because of the size difference, it's not usually obvious unless the DB goes to the ground, and even then they probably won't call it.  It has to be blatant and obvious for them to call offensive PI, and it's usually on a pick play.  Trying to make a point by using that just isn't going to wash.

[Golfingdad]

There is a big difference, even though you don't seem to want to admit it.  This is your earlier comment: Pass interference is either missed or it's called when it didn't actually happen on a regular basis because it is so often a judgement call.  It's dependent on the viewing angle of the official.  I've at least seen a half dozen facemask fouls which were not called, yet looked quite obvious on screen.  When the action is occurring, everything happens so fast that if the official happens to blink at the wrong time, he'll miss it.  Those calls are going to be a problem for as long as they depend primarily on the officials on the field for regulating the game.  I believe that the game really has gotten too fast for real time referees on action calls. In the blown call with the Chiefs, that simply isn't the case.  It is nothing more than a matter of counting, one of the most basic parts of the official's job, and during a time when the players are all static.  An NFL official should be able to recognize an illegal formation just by looking at it.  An official who can't count to 7 shouldn't even be on the field - certainly not at such a critical juncture in the game and the season. Receivers push off a lot and get away with it.  Most of those big strong receivers that the sports media loves to gush about get the window of separation by pushing off from the usually much smaller DB.  Because of the size difference, it's not usually obvious unless the DB goes to the ground, and even then they probably won't call it.  It has to be blatant and obvious for them to call offensive PI.  Trying to make a point by using that just isn't going to wash.

Yeah but that's not the comparison I'm talking about. I'm talking about the story in the link I provided. Game 1 against the texans, they made a call against the chargers that allowed the texans a first down and ultimately a touchdown. After the game, exactly as in this case, the nfl admitted it was a blown call. It wasn't the last play of the game but it was in the 4th quarter. The chargers ultimately lost by 3 on a field goal as time expired. I'd argue the chances of the chargers winning that game if the refs didn't blow that call were pretty danged high. As high as the chances of the chiefs winning last week? Perhaps not, but close.

[phan52]

Originally Posted by phan52

I agree with you that the infraction had zero effect on the kicker. But a rule is a rule. And from one of the camera angles, it was clear that one of the refs was standing right behind the part of the formation with the seven players. He's gotta call that regardless. I shed no tears for the stinkin' Steelers and they really have nobody else to blame but themselves for their plight because of their awful start, but they got screwed.

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

But if you believe that, then the extension of that view is that the chargers got screwed in game 1, (per the story in my link a few posts back) hence the steelers really didn't get screwed because they would have already been eliminated.

Yes, this call was missed, but so were several others that also impacted games, but since this one happened at the end of the last game of the season, it's the only one people want to remember.

The Chargers had a two TD lead in the fourth quarter of that game, at home, against the Houston Texans who happen to have the first pick in the upcoming draft. They lost games to the sorry Raiders and the sorrier Redskins. They were in a deathmatch in the last game of the season against a bunch of backups. Like the Steelers with their horrendous start, the Chargers had nobody but themselves to blame for their predicament. And a subjective call like pass interference is not the same thing as a blatant violation, very visible to one of the refs standing right behind an illegal formation.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

There is a big difference, even though you don't seem to want to admit it.  This is your earlier comment:

Pass interference is either missed or it's called when it didn't actually happen on a regular basis because it is so often a judgement call.  It's dependent on the viewing angle of the official.  I've at least seen a half dozen facemask fouls which were not called, yet looked quite obvious on screen.  When the action is occurring, everything happens so fast that if the official happens to blink at the wrong time, he'll miss it.  Those calls are going to be a problem for as long as they depend primarily on the officials on the field for regulating the game.  I believe that the game really has gotten too fast for real time referees on action calls.

In the blown call with the Chiefs, that simply isn't the case.  It is nothing more than a matter of counting, one of the most basic parts of the official's job, and during a time when the players are all static.  An NFL official should be able to recognize an illegal formation just by looking at it.  An official who can't count to 7 shouldn't even be on the field - certainly not at such a critical juncture in the game and the season.

Receivers push off a lot and get away with it.  Most of those big strong receivers that the sports media loves to gush about get the window of separation by pushing off from the usually much smaller DB.  Because of the size difference, it's not usually obvious unless the DB goes to the ground, and even then they probably won't call it.  It has to be blatant and obvious for them to call offensive PI.  Trying to make a point by using that just isn't going to wash.

Yeah but that's not the comparison I'm talking about. I'm talking about the story in the link I provided. Game 1 against the texans, they made a call against the chargers that allowed the texans a first down and ultimately a touchdown. After the game, exactly as in this case, the nfl admitted it was a blown call. It wasn't the last play of the game but it was in the 4th quarter. The chargers ultimately lost by 3 on a field goal as time expired. I'd argue the chances of the chargers winning that game if the refs didn't blow that call were pretty danged high. As high as the chances of the chiefs winning last week? Perhaps not, but close.

For exactly this reason, all calls should be made as completely and as correctly as possible.  None should be ignored just because the play happened to go somewhere else on the field.  The WR blocking a CB on the left may know that the RB is supposed to run right, but sometimes the action doesn't go just as planned.  The RB may find the hole closed, bounce off and go back to the other side, so the WR needs to play correctly and at full speed as if the game rests on that block.

The same thing applies to the officials calling fouls.  At the time that the foul occurs, they can't always be certain that the play isn't going to come back their way, so it needs to be called and penalized regardless of the end result.

[newtogolf]

They were sitting 20 starters. The eight listed were simply the highest profile ones. Their entire starting defense and nine starting offensive members were sitting out that game for KC.

Even worse if you're a Chargers fan, hope they send Rex Ryan and the Jets a nice gift for helping them back into the playoffs.

[Golfingdad]

The Chargers had a two TD lead in the fourth quarter of that game, at home, against the Houston Texans who happen to have the first pick in the upcoming draft. They lost games to the sorry Raiders and the sorrier Redskins. They were in a deathmatch in the last game of the season against a bunch of backups. Like the Steelers with their horrendous start, the Chargers had nobody but themselves to blame for their predicament. And a subjective call like pass interference is not the same thing as a blatant violation, very visible to one of the refs standing right behind an illegal formation.

See my reply above to fourputt. I'm not talking about the titans game, I'm talking about the texans game.

[phan52]

See my reply above to fourputt. I'm not talking about the titans game, I'm talking about the texans game.

Didn't the Chargers have a two TD lead at home in the 4th quarter of the Texans game? One call by the refs didn't decide that game.

[Golfingdad]

Didn't the Chargers have a two TD lead at home in the 4th quarter of the Texans game? One call by the refs didn't decide that game.

I don't follow this reasoning.  Because they were up by a lot of points at one juncture means that the refs blown call doesn't matter?  The game came down to the final play ... I'd say that the blown call matters quite a lot.  Here is the link and story.  (I was on my iphone for awhile which is why I kept only referencing it without re-linking it, my apologies for being lazy ;))  http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers-cheated-to-make-playoffs-pittsbugh-steelers-should-be-in/

And here is the specific excerpt:

UPDATE: A reader, Zack, pointed out that the Chargers may have been screwed out of a win back in Week 1, and you know what, his argument is pretty good.

Exhibit A: week 1, MNF, Chargers v Texans. SD defensive tackle Cam Thomas was penalized for unnecessary roughness on a field-goal attempt in a loss. The call eventually led to four extra points for Houston yet was deemed incorrect by the NFL.

Because of the missed called, the Texans got a fresh set, scored a TD and would eventually go on to win by three points…huh…sound familiar?!

A blown call on a field goal resulting in a win for the other team by only three points?!?

So, if you are arguing that the Chiefs should have been able to get another kick and it would have gone through (because of course kickers can’t miss twice), then you must ALSO argue that the Texans blown call should not have been and that the Chargers had just as much of a chance to go on an win that game as the Chiefs should have been able to go on and win there game.

AAANNNNDDDD….if that is true, then in fact the Chargers would have walked into week 17 v the Chiefs at 9-6, not 8-7, and would have in fact been playing for 10-6 rather than 9-7. If this is the case then the whole “the Steelers should be in right now” argument is even more screwed because even with a Chargers loss, they end at 9-7 and STILL beat all three of the other teams sitting at 8-8.

He is right that this happened. The NFL admitted it was a bad call. However, there was still almost a full quarter left in the game, so the Texans could have still won. But they would have been down 11 instead of 7, and they would have had a significantly smaller chance of winning. They pulled off a pretty crazy comeback, even when given that bad call.

So, pretty good argument, I must say.

Conclusion: NFL refs suck.

If you argue the Steelers belong in the playoffs because of last weekend, then don't you HAVE to also argue that the Chargers belong on the playoffs because of this??  Otherwise, aren't you being inconsistent?  Is that game less important because it was 17 weeks ago?

[phan52]

I don't follow this reasoning.  Because they were up by a lot of points at one juncture means that the refs blown call doesn't matter?  The game came down to the final play ... I'd say that the blown call matters quite a lot.  Here is the link and story.  (I was on my iphone for awhile which is why I kept only referencing it without re-linking it, my apologies for being lazy ;))  http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers-cheated-to-make-playoffs-pittsbugh-steelers-should-be-in/

And here is the specific excerpt:

If you argue the Steelers belong in the playoffs because of last weekend, then don't you HAVE to also argue that the Chargers belong on the playoffs because of this??  Otherwise, aren't you being inconsistent?  Is that game less important because it was 17 weeks ago?

Besides the fact that it was 17 weeks ago, the Texans were still down to the Chargers by a TD in that game, in the fourth quarter on the road. It wasn't potentially the last play of the game. Granted, nobody knows if KC makes the FG if given another opportunity five yards closer, but that was an NFL chip shot.

The Chargers should have put both those games away and didn't. Beat the worst team in the NFL in week one, beat up a bunch of backups in week seventeen, and stop whining. Especially since you are the lucky one who is still in the tournament. In the meantime, send Rex Ryan and Marvin Lewis some thank you cards.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

Didn't the Chargers have a two TD lead at home in the 4th quarter of the Texans game? One call by the refs didn't decide that game.

I don't follow this reasoning.  Because they were up by a lot of points at one juncture means that the refs blown call doesn't matter?  The game came down to the final play ... I'd say that the blown call matters quite a lot.  Here is the link and story.  (I was on my iphone for awhile which is why I kept only referencing it without re-linking it, my apologies for being lazy ;))  http://www.sportsgrid.com/nfl/san-diego-chargers-cheated-to-make-playoffs-pittsbugh-steelers-should-be-in/

And here is the specific excerpt:

Quote:

UPDATE: A reader, Zack, pointed out that the Chargers may have been screwed out of a win back in Week 1, and you know what, his argument is pretty good.

Exhibit A: week 1, MNF, Chargers v Texans. SD defensive tackle Cam Thomas was penalized for unnecessary roughness on a field-goal attempt in a loss. The call eventually led to four extra points for Houston yet was deemed incorrect by the NFL.

Because of the missed called, the Texans got a fresh set, scored a TD and would eventually go on to win by three points…huh…sound familiar?!

A blown call on a field goal resulting in a win for the other team by only three points?!?

So, if you are arguing that the Chiefs should have been able to get another kick and it would have gone through (because of course kickers can’t miss twice), then you must ALSO argue that the Texans blown call should not have been and that the Chargers had just as much of a chance to go on an win that game as the Chiefs should have been able to go on and win there game.

AAANNNNDDDD….if that is true, then in fact the Chargers would have walked into week 17 v the Chiefs at 9-6, not 8-7, and would have in fact been playing for 10-6 rather than 9-7. If this is the case then the whole “the Steelers should be in right now” argument is even more screwed because even with a Chargers loss, they end at 9-7 and STILL beat all three of the other teams sitting at 8-8.

He is right that this happened. The NFL admitted it was a bad call. However, there was still almost a full quarter left in the game, so the Texans could have still won. But they would have been down 11 instead of 7, and they would have had a significantly smaller chance of winning. They pulled off a pretty crazy comeback, even when given that bad call.

So, pretty good argument, I must say.

Conclusion: NFL refs suck.

If you argue the Steelers belong in the playoffs because of last weekend, then don't you HAVE to also argue that the Chargers belong on the playoffs because of this??  Otherwise, aren't you being inconsistent?  Is that game less important because it was 17 weeks ago?

A bad call deciding a season on what was essentially the last play of the last game is decidedly more impactful than a similar call in the first or second week of the season when there is still time to reverse their fortunes.  They have time to work on getting better and not letting themselves get down against a crappy team while playing at home.  The same way that Denver probably took SD too lightly in the 15th week and got beat at home.  They left no doubt the next 2 weeks that they weren't taking either of those games lightly.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying the the Steelers should be there either.  They started the season 0-4 and pretty much sealed their fate right then  The fact that they were still in the running is little short of a miracle.  They have nothing to cry about either.  I'd be surprised to see either of them make much of a splash in the playoffs.  They just aren't that good.  My Broncos made the playoffs several times by going through the side door, and never really threatened anyone in the post season.

[Golfingdad]

Besides the fact that it was 17 weeks ago, the Texans were still down to the Chargers by a TD in that game, in the fourth quarter on the road. It wasn't potentially the last play of the game. Granted, nobody knows if KC makes the FG if given another opportunity five yards closer, but that was an NFL chip shot. The Chargers should have put both those games away and didn't. Beat the worst team in the NFL in week one, beat up a bunch of backups in week seventeen, and stop whining. Especially since you are the lucky one who is still in the tournament. In the meantime, send Rex Ryan and Marvin Lewis some thank you cards.

Whining??? How am I the one whining? I'm not complaining about anything that's happened to this point ... But actually quite the opposite. My example is a reminder to anybody else who may be "whining" about the steelers not being in the playoffs that they don't have quite as much ammo as they think they do.

[iacas]

All I am saying is this missed call - this TYPE of missed call, something that didn't affect the actual play on the field - does not bother me that much.

Drew, once again, I'll say this: you can't possibly know whether it affected the actual play on the field.

---

I don't really care if either team makes the playoffs. They both suck, and won't go anywhere. But this lousy kind of officiating is one of the many reasons the NFL sucks more and more each year.

[Golfingdad]

Drew, once again, I'll say this: you can't possibly know whether it affected the actual play on the field. [rule] I don't really care if either team makes the playoffs. They both suck, and won't go anywhere. But this lousy kind of officiating is one of the many reasons the NFL sucks more and more each year.

What's your view on the blown call in the chargers texans game?

[iacas]

What's your view on the blown call in the chargers texans game?

Couldn't tell ya. Never saw it. Irrelevant to the points I've made (or, relating to the point about how sucky refereeing makes the NFL less attractive to watch, supplemental).

[boogielicious]

Boy everyone is ganging up on @Golfingdad .  There were many, many bad calls or non-calls this year.  Quite a few that affected the outcome of games.  Several were in the last play of the game that either ended the game or allowed one team to have another shot to win a game.  The Chargers are not responsible for the ineptitude of the refs, so there should be no shame from them or their fans.  A bad call, or non-call, is equally important at the beginning of a game as it is at the end of the game because every play is important.  We all get caught up in the plays and calls at the end.

I have voiced my opinion of refs this year, and it is getting worse.  Goodell is part of the problem.