You make the call!

[David in FL]

Why can't you use a legit 9 hole score for handicapping purposes? Curious...

You can, when you just play 9 holes. 9 hole rounds posted are subsequently combined into complete 18 hole rounds when another 9 holes is posted. In this case though, the OP played a full 18. He just played 3 holes not in accordance with the rules. That still counts as a full round, but those 3 holes are adjusted in the manner described above. What must be avoided is someone playing a full round, but picking and choosing to post only 9 holes, in an effort to influence their handicap improperly.

[rkim291968]

Hell is too harsh. Maybe purgatory though... it's a place where there's still golf, but all the tee boxes are slightly uneven, the greens are always aerated, and the bunkers are all hard pan.

Golf hell is where diameter of hole and golf ball are of identical length, par 4s are 700 yards long going uphill, and 18 hole round takes 12 hours to finish.   I know b/c I have been there and back, there and back, there and back, ....

Back to the topic: my revised vote is to scrap the whole round and beg for forgiveness to God of Golf Rules.

[Tee2Trees]

Here's the problem with OP's actions as far as it pertains to maintaining a handicap: If he would have shot a par or better front nine he absolutely would have counted it it towards his handicap.  No one starts dicking around on the 7th hole with a great score still in sight.  Similary, no one declares the front 9 to be a practice round and then proceeds to follow every rule in the book in an effort to score well until 7 when they suddenly start trying out chipping techniques.  The only way he can throw out the front nine score and keep the back is if he literally exclaimed to himself or others ahead of the round "I am not counting 1-9 towards handicap but I am counting 10-18 no matter what transpires on either side."  If OP says that was his intent all along under any circumstance then good for him but no one is going to believe that without a witness account from before the round to validate the plan.

A perhaps similar scenario I have often wondered:  If you hit a punitive tee shot on the first hole of your round ruining any chance of an epic score for the day, it can be tempting to just grab another ball and hit again, especially when playing alone.  Generally this is considered a mulligan and negates your official score for that hole at least.  For handicap purposes this situation is covered in the above posts, as the opportunity to declare "practice round" was forfeited the minute the first "official" shot was attempted.

But what if the only thing you are concerned with is recording a personal best that day?

One could always hit the opening tee shot OB, then forfeit the round and go back to the clubhouse to pay for another round, right?  Taking it further, who cares if you pay again or register your intent to play a new round with the clubhouse?  Just hit again and try to live with yourself for doing it!  Sure, the scores do not apply for handicap purposes but one could reasonably hit an unlimited number opening tee shots (if the course lets him) and after finally hitting a good one proceed to continue the round as normal and still count the score as a personal best provided all other rules were followed properly.  Now, about the course record...well I doubt that would actually ever come from this but it would be up to the course's own discretion.  If I personally owned the golf course I would probably allow myself to do this as I am essentially registering a new round and paying another green fee to myself after every lousy first hole tee shot attempt.

[JCRuzanski]

Very good points...

[Valleygolfer]

Here's the problem with OP's actions as far as it pertains to maintaining a handicap: If he would have shot a par or better front nine he absolutely would have counted it it towards his handicap.  No one starts dicking around on the 7th hole with a great score still in sight.  Similary, no one declares the front 9 to be a practice round and then proceeds to follow every rule in the book in an effort to score well until 7 when they suddenly start trying out chipping techniques.  The only way he can throw out the front nine score and keep the back is if he literally exclaimed to himself or others ahead of the round "I am not counting 1-9 towards handicap but I am counting 10-18 no matter what transpires on either side."  If OP says that was his intent all along under any circumstance then good for him but no one is going to believe that without a witness account from before the round to validate the plan.

A perhaps similar scenario I have often wondered:  If you hit a punitive tee shot on the first hole of your round ruining any chance of an epic score for the day, it can be tempting to just grab another ball and hit again, especially when playing alone.  Generally this is considered a mulligan and negates your official score for that hole at least.  For handicap purposes this situation is covered in the above posts, as the opportunity to declare "practice round" was forfeited the minute the first "official" shot was attempted.

But what if the only thing you are concerned with is recording a personal best that day?

One could always hit the opening tee shot OB, then forfeit the round and go back to the clubhouse to pay for another round, right?  Taking it further, who cares if you pay again or register your intent to play a new round with the clubhouse?  Just hit again and try to live with yourself for doing it!  Sure, the scores do not apply for handicap purposes but one could reasonably hit an unlimited number opening tee shots (if the course lets him) and after finally hitting a good one proceed to continue the round as normal and still count the score as a personal best provided all other rules were followed properly.  Now, about the course record...well I doubt that would actually ever come from this but it would be up to the course's own discretion.  If I personally owned the golf course I would probably allow myself to do this as I am essentially registering a new round and paying another green fee to myself after every lousy first hole tee shot attempt.

I agree you do have good points. I am not saying I am right or wrong necessarily but prior to the round I felt this was going to be mostly a "trying to get back on track" round. Not that I got on a pedestal and declared a practice round. I wasn't trying any "new" chips, just trying to rid the case of the flips. There was a distinct change in my mind set prior to the round. I had hoped I would not deal with the same issues. Had I remedied the issue early after a few practice shots I would not have counted the round had scored my normal round score. I have already posted some out of characteristic 90+ scores as well as an abysmal 104 which I put out every effort to stop the bleeding the whole round. I don't really care if I post the 92 but I didn't feel like it was genuine effort at scoring so I thought I would get the traps feedback on this.

Lastly I started off my round today, playing by myself, with two OB and took my 7... it killed my round but I was the only one who knew....

[Fourputt]

Here's the problem with OP's actions as far as it pertains to maintaining a handicap: If he would have shot a par or better front nine he absolutely would have counted it it towards his handicap.  No one starts dicking around on the 7th hole with a great score still in sight.  Similary, no one declares the front 9 to be a practice round and then proceeds to follow every rule in the book in an effort to score well until 7 when they suddenly start trying out chipping techniques.  The only way he can throw out the front nine score and keep the back is if he literally exclaimed to himself or others ahead of the round "I am not counting 1-9 towards handicap but I am counting 10-18 no matter what transpires on either side."  If OP says that was his intent all along under any circumstance then good for him but no one is going to believe that without a witness account from before the round to validate the plan.

A perhaps similar scenario I have often wondered:  If you hit a punitive tee shot on the first hole of your round ruining any chance of an epic score for the day, it can be tempting to just grab another ball and hit again, especially when playing alone.  Generally this is considered a mulligan and negates your official score for that hole at least.  For handicap purposes this situation is covered in the above posts, as the opportunity to declare "practice round" was forfeited the minute the first "official" shot was attempted.

But what if the only thing you are concerned with is recording a personal best that day?

One could always hit the opening tee shot OB, then forfeit the round and go back to the clubhouse to pay for another round, right?  Taking it further, who cares if you pay again or register your intent to play a new round with the clubhouse?  Just hit again and try to live with yourself for doing it!  Sure, the scores do not apply for handicap purposes but one could reasonably hit an unlimited number opening tee shots (if the course lets him) and after finally hitting a good one proceed to continue the round as normal and still count the score as a personal best provided all other rules were followed properly.  Now, about the course record...well I doubt that would actually ever come from this but it would be up to the course's own discretion.  If I personally owned the golf course I would probably allow myself to do this as I am essentially registering a new round and paying another green fee to myself after every lousy first hole tee shot attempt.

As to your point about a course record, I don't think that it's possible to do your restart plan.  Any course I've played where an official course record was known, the score was made during competition, with a proper marker keeping and attesting to the score.

[David in FL]

As to your point about a course record, I don't think that it's possible to do your restart plan.  Any course I've played where an official course record was known, the score was made during competition, with a proper marker keeping and attesting to the score.

If only a personal best or course record round was solely dependent on that first tee shot and nothing more...... ;-)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

As to your point about a course record, I don't think that it's possible to do your restart plan.  Any course I've played where an official course record was known, the score was made during competition, with a proper marker keeping and attesting to the score.

If only a personal best or course record round was solely dependent on that first tee shot and nothing more......

Ain't that the truth.  When I have a good round going, the double bogey-man doesn't usually show up until the back 9.  I've been 3 under through 11 and shot bogey golf for the last 7 holes.  4 over is still a great score for me, but I will always lament what might have been.

[dsc123]

Doesn't 7-1(b) (disqualification for practicing on the course during or before a round) implicate all of the holes played during this 18?  It seems to me that two aspects of that rule require negating the entire round--(1) practice before a round is illegal, so when you play hole #10, you can't post a legit score because you've already practiced on the course before playing that hole, which is illegal; (2) the penalty is disqualification--so doing it once ruins the entire round.

I think those distinguish this from other rule violations.

[Fourputt]

Doesn't 7-1(b) (disqualification for practicing on the course during or before a round) implicate all of the holes played during this 18?  It seems to me that two aspects of that rule require negating the entire round--(1) practice before a round is illegal, so when you play hole #10, you can't post a legit score because you've already practiced on the course before playing that hole, which is illegal; (2) the penalty is disqualification--so doing it once ruins the entire round.

I think those distinguish this from other rule violations.

That only applies to a competition, not for handicap.  For handicap, as long as at least 13 holes are played by the rules, you have a legitimate score.  Look at it like this.  You could play 36 holes on the course in one day.  Does that eliminate the second round for handicap use?  No, it doesn't.  So using 3 holes of an 18 hole round for such purposes does not invalidate the round, it only invalidates those 3 holes.

[dsc123]

That only applies to a competition, not for handicap.

You mean the prohibition on practice only applies to competitions, or that the penalty of disqualification only applies to competitions? I imagine that since you're agreeing that the holes in which he practiced were not played by the rules, you mean the later.

in which case, my only response is this:

Ok, why doesn't it apply?  You are playing a cash game with your buddies and you make a breach calling for disqualification.  In my group you are out of the game.   Any money you have lost is lost, and any money you have won is frozen at that point.  If the DQ results in you losing 1$ a hole from that point on, then it is what it is, a lesson in playing by the rules.  Posting for handicap?  DQ invalidates that round.  Sorry but you can keep up your end and I can keep up my end and as usual, you will go your way and I'll still play by the rules.  As I suggested above, send your idea into the USGA and see if they even bother to respond to such a question.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/68061/what-is-your-opinion-on-the-breakfast-ball/162#post_864627

I'm really not trying to open that debate again, but I am curious as to why hitting a practice ball off the first tee* would invalidate your round for HC purposes, but practicing for 3 holes mid-round, wouldn't  And i'm not trying to use this as a gotcha--I think this enlightens this discussion.  If DQ applies there, why not here?  If there's not a good reason, then its probably not the right interpretation.

strictly talking about a practice ball before the round--not an optional ball or mulligan or whatever...trying to keep this on the issue of whether practicing mid round/preround taints the entire round

For handicap, as long as at least 13 holes are played by the rules, you have a legitimate score.

But having practiced on hole 7, when you play hole 10, you've practiced on the course during the round, and therefore you're not playing hole 10 by the rules.  I don't see how what you did on hole 7 doesn't taint what you do on hole 10 when the rules go so far as to prohibit practicing before the round.

Look at it like this.  You could play 36 holes on the course in one day.  Does that eliminate the second round for handicap use?  No, it doesn't.

Looking at the rules, I don't see how that can be interpreted to not violate the Rule 7-1.  Unless you define competition as only when you are playing against an opponent, but I think you argued against that in the breakfast ball thread and I don't want to reopen that box of worms.  So assuming that you are right, I'm don't see how you can interpret the rules that way.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

That only applies to a competition, not for handicap.

You mean the prohibition on practice only applies to competitions, or that the penalty of disqualification only applies to competitions? I imagine that since you're agreeing that the holes in which he practiced were not played by the rules, you mean the later.

in which case, my only response is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Ok, why doesn't it apply?  You are playing a cash game with your buddies and you make a breach calling for disqualification.  In my group you are out of the game.   Any money you have lost is lost, and any money you have won is frozen at that point.  If the DQ results in you losing 1$ a hole from that point on, then it is what it is, a lesson in playing by the rules.  Posting for handicap?  DQ invalidates that round.  Sorry but you can keep up your end and I can keep up my end and as usual, you will go your way and I'll still play by the rules.  As I suggested above, send your idea into the USGA and see if they even bother to respond to such a question.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/68061/what-is-your-opinion-on-the-breakfast-ball/162#post_864627

I'm really not trying to open that debate again, but I am curious as to why hitting a practice ball off the first tee* would invalidate your round for HC purposes, but practicing for 3 holes mid-round, wouldn't  And i'm not trying to use this as a gotcha--I think this enlightens this discussion.  If DQ applies there, why not here?  If there's not a good reason, then its probably not the right interpretation.

strictly talking about a practice ball before the round--not an optional ball or mulligan or whatever...trying to keep this on the issue of whether practicing mid round/preround taints the entire round

I was proven wrong on my opinion on that one too, so you picked a rather bad example.  What is done with a group of guys on a wager may be quite different from a strictly "by the rules" round.  By the way, the Wednesday group I played in never had anyone commit a disqualification penalty, so the subject actually never came up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

For handicap, as long as at least 13 holes are played by the rules, you have a legitimate score.

But having practiced on hole 7, when you play hole 10, you've practiced on the course during the round, and therefore you're not playing hole 10 by the rules.  I don't see how what you did on hole 7 doesn't taint what you do on hole 10 when the rules go so far as to prohibit practicing before the round.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Look at it like this.  You could play 36 holes on the course in one day.  Does that eliminate the second round for handicap use?  No, it doesn't.

Looking at the rules, I don't see how that can be interpreted to not violate the Rule 7-1.  Unless you define competition as only when you are playing against an opponent, but I think you argued against that in the breakfast ball thread and I don't want to reopen that box of worms.  So assuming that you are right, I'm don't see how you can interpret the rules that way.

You also can't have any unfinished holes in a stroke competition, but you can in a handicap round.  They are treated differently because otherwise it would be too easy to just do something wrong to invalidate any round that you didn't want to post.  Just put a donut weight on your club and take one swing with it and you're DQed.  The handicap rules contain some differences from the standard legitimate round for the purpose of preventing handicap manipulation.

[dsc123]

I was proven wrong on my opinion on that one too, so you picked a rather bad example.  What is done with a group of guys on a wager may be quite different from a strictly "by the rules" round.  By the way, the Wednesday group I played in never had anyone commit a disqualification penalty, so the subject actually never came up.

You also can't have any unfinished holes in a stroke competition, but you can in a handicap round.  They are treated differently because otherwise it would be too easy to just do something wrong to invalidate any round that you didn't want to post.  Just put a donut weight on your club and take one swing with it and you're DQed.  The handicap rules contain some differences from the standard legitimate round for the purpose of preventing handicap manipulation.

I get that if he practices on hole 7, then you just post par + HC or whatever because you didn't play that hole. I guess I just don't see how he isn't violating rule 7-1(b), when he plays hole #10.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I was proven wrong on my opinion on that one too, so you picked a rather bad example.  What is done with a group of guys on a wager may be quite different from a strictly "by the rules" round.  By the way, the Wednesday group I played in never had anyone commit a disqualification penalty, so the subject actually never came up.

You also can't have any unfinished holes in a stroke competition, but you can in a handicap round.  They are treated differently because otherwise it would be too easy to just do something wrong to invalidate any round that you didn't want to post.  Just put a donut weight on your club and take one swing with it and you're DQed.  The handicap rules contain some differences from the standard legitimate round for the purpose of preventing handicap manipulation.

I get that if he practices on hole 7, then you just post par + HC or whatever because you didn't play that hole. I guess I just don't see how he isn't violating rule 7-1(b), when he plays hole #10.

Did you not notice that Rule 7 is all about competition ?  Every provision in that rule includes the term competition or competition course.  If it isn't a stroke competition, you cannot be in breach of Rule 7-1b.

If I am playing a casual round with my friends and we have a group wager on, then Rule 7 applies to us only as we deem it to apply, and it doesn't apply at all as far as the score returned for handicap is concerned unless the total number of holes played under the rules is less than 13.  We aren't playing a formal competition, and according to the wording, Rule 7 only applies when a competition is involved.

[dsc123]

Did you not notice that Rule 7 is all about competition?  Every provision in that rule includes the term competition or competition course.  If it isn't a stroke competition, you cannot be in breach of Rule 7-1b.

If I am playing a casual round with my friends and we have a group wager on, then Rule 7 applies to us only as we deem it to apply, and it doesn't apply at all as far as the score returned for handicap is concerned unless the total number of holes played under the rules is less than 13.  We aren't playing a formal competition, and according to the wording, Rule 7 only applies when a competition is involved.

Oh, I didn't realize you were relying on that.  I got you now.

Funny, because that's what I had previously argued in the other thread and I thought the conclusion was that I was wrong.  I think this makes the most sense, though.

[Spitfisher]

The GHIN handicap system allows you to post a regulation round of golf with as few as 5 holes played for 9 and I believe as few as 12 for 18. If you are 12 over after 12 the logical score using an (equitable scoring method) is 90

My point is disregard the holes that you took extra shots on, count up the back nine and any completed holes on the front nine...and post your score

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spitfisher

The GHIN handicap system allows you to post a regulation round of golf with as few as 5 holes played for 9 and I believe as few as 12 for 18. If you are 12 over after 12 the logical score using an (equitable scoring method) is 90

My point is disregard the holes that you took extra shots on, count up the back nine and any completed holes on the front nine...and post your score

This isn't even close.  You must play at least 7 holes by the rules to return a 9 hole score, and 13 holes for an 18 hole score.  And for any holes not played by the rules, the manual states that you must return a score of par plus any handicap strokes allowed on the hole (the same as if the hole was not played at all).

Quote:

a. Scores To Post

To post a 9-hole score, the player must play 7 to 12 holes, and at least 7 holes must be played in accordance with the principle of the Rules of Golf.  To post an 18-hole score, the player must play at least 13 holes in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf. (See Decisions 5-1a/3 through 5-1a/5 .)

Quote:

4-2. Holes Not Played or Not Played Under The Principles of The Rules of Golf

If a player does not play a hole or plays it other than under the principles of the Rules of Golf (except for preferred lies ), the score recorded for that hole for handicap purposes must be par plus any handicap strokes the player is entitled to receive on that hole. This hole score, when recorded, should be preceded by an "X."

Example: A player with a Course Handicap of 10 receives a handicap stroke on the first 10 allocated handicap-stroke holes. If the player does not play the sixth allocated handicap-stroke hole, which is a par 4, because of construction on the green, the player must record a score of par plus one for handicap purposes, or X-5. (See Decision 4-2/1 and Section 5-2b .)

[14ledo81]

I don't understand that either other than a personal ethics or standard. I started out rough and personally declared the first 9 hole portion the round as a practice round and determined to iron out swing issues I had developed in a round prior. I picked up on the 3rd hole, 5th and 6th. I hit practice shots on the 6th, 8th and 9th. Knowing I was not going to count the round I took risks in trees I normally wouldn't take as well. I am not sure if I have to "declare before the 1st tee shot" or what the protocol is. Since it was a leisure round I decided that I would put out the effort after the first nine to legitimately keep score without any more practice shots.

I didn't feel like working on this at the range so I used the first 9 to practice. I knew I had some swing work to do but was was hoping though not completely sure it would have remedied itself. I saw the writing on the wall and decided to focus on fixing my swing. I shot an approximate 52 and 40 respectively.

What if you "stopped playing" for a few minutes after the ninth hole?  Then you started a "new" 9 hole round?