How would you play this hole?

[MEfree]

#16 Keystone River Golf Course in Colorado- Extremely downhill par 4 with a slight dog leg to the left

I think this picture shows the gold and red tee boxes.  The white, blue and black tee boxes are behind and to the photographer's left.

Blacks 509 yards

Blues 497 yards

While 448

Gold 427

Red 395

Fairway has multiple tiers and mostly slopes from right to left.  From the whites, the fairway runs out at 250 yards and turns into 2-3" rough.  The main problem I have with the hole is picking the right club off the tee as you get a much different bounce depending on whether you land on the flatter section of a tier or the sloped section between the tiers.  It also makes a huge difference if you land in a dry or wetter spot.  Take too little club and you are left with 220+ to the green.  Take too much club and the fairway falls to the left into scrub bushes or go through the right side and it falls right to long grass and OOB.

Similar to above, but a bit lower down.

Here is the aerial

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Keystone+Ranch+Golf+Course≪=39.593577,-105.995112&spn;=0.003807,0.008256&fb;=1≷=us&hq;=keystone+golf+course&hnear;=0x874014749b1856b7:0xc75483314990a7ff,Colorado&cid;=0,0,13240230494915743703&t;=h&z;=18

[David in FL]

I'm going to assume that I'm probably playing the blues, so I'm probably hitting driver....but that's assuming that even with the altitude and downhill, I'm not going to run through the second tier.  I'm absolutely not going to risk a downhill lie in the rough for a second shot.  I'll settle for a little longer 2d and hit a hybrid down the hill with a good chance to make 4.  5 doesn't sound like a horrible score there, but I'm not risking 6....

Beautiful hole.

[MSchott]

I think this is a poorly designed hole. Can't tell from the pictures but is there a reason the fairway ends 250 yards from the tee? I suppose the architect wanted to tempt the better player to carry to the next fairway but it causes the average golfer to have to lay up. I would think that for me with the elevation and drop shot effect, a 3 hybrid that I normally hit 185 would be the best choice off the tee. The issue is the long second shot. I hope missed approaches aren't heavily penalized. Then again, it's a long par 4 for a mid to high-handicapper even with the elevation.

[Nutter]

Hard to tell without playing it man.  If I was playing the blacks I guess the fairway is running out around 310, but I also don't know how downhill it is.  If I assume the slope reduces that distance 30 yards then I'm looking to hit it no further than 280, in which case I'd hit a 3 wood which I'll about 250-270 depending on contact.  It really depends on what you have the most confidence in I guess.  Hitting the shot you know you're going to hit well is better than trying something risky to gain another 10-20 yards on a hole like that.  Best advice I could give for a hole like that is to play for par but hit safe shots only and take double out of the picture like David suggested.

[MEfree]

I am not sure why the fairway ends, but it is a VERY SEVERE down slope once it does.  The best player at the club told me one time that he thinks they should make it a 3 par- assuming he finds the drive too much of a lottery in terms of the bounce you get.

To clarify, the fairway actual has about 4 different tiers.  The last tier gives you a (downhill) shot of about 195.  The 2nd to last tier leaves close to 220. The two other tiers leaves even further.

I played from the whites yesterday into a VERY STRONG WIND-  I had planned to tee off with a 5i, but given the strength of the wind figured that I could use a full 4i (and then some).  My opponent hit driver that ended up on the end of the second to last tier.  I hit a very solid and high 4i on a perfect line and it ended up on the down slope past the last tier.  I am longer than him, but on #10, when I also hit a solid 4i and he hit a very solid driver, he was 50 yards past me.

Earlier in the week, when I played the blues with a guy who plays there all the time, I hit 5 wood and he said "perfect"- again, it was just through the last tier on the down slope.  The problem is, if I hit 4i from the blues or 5i from the whites, I might end up on the 2nd or 3rd to last tier with a long approach shot.

I think the issue may be that I hit a high ball that lands soft with little roll on level ground, but will run a lot when it lands on one of the severe down slopes between the tiers.  I don't really have the shot (especially from an elevated tee), but I think a very low stingger may be the way to go as that will roll a lot regardless of where it lands??

[WUTiger]

I would be playing the Whites. With the elevated tee, and probably 5.000 feet + in altitude, I would play a 4W off the tee with a draw, to get some run-out.

I clicked onto the map, and made myself a measuring ruler using the 50-meter distance gauge at the bottom of the screen. Stopping my tee shot near the end of the upper fairway would leave me about 200 meters (218 yards) to center of green. (as per MEfree , tee shot might end up a little closer).

From the fairway, again counting on a downhill shot + mountain altitude, I would guess a 4i, 4H or 7W for an all-carry approach.

I would have to play it a few times to tell if it was a strategic challenge, or a funhouse hole.

[Dave2512]

I just played up there a few weeks ago and IMO really depends how long you are at lower altitudes and taking into account the elevated tees. It was as much as a 2-3 club adjustment in some instances. If you're a big hitter 4i is like driver from those elevated tees. It's unreal how far the ball flies at altitude from tees that are as much as 50 feet above the fairway. There's a 400 yd par 4 on the ranch course I think it's #4. The plaque on the tee indicates something like 310 to the hazard that runs across the fairway, a little stream. We hit 4i north of the 150 marker, a 3-4w would roll into the stream if you didn't carry it. It looks like the ball drops forever, it's like hitting from the top of a building.

Put me down for 4i. Driver is overkill up there unless you hit it dead straight and there is no hazard in play. Holes play 40-60 yds short and it's more of a think your way around it style of play than taking a rip at everything. I found myself playing the longer par 4's like par 5's hoping to get up and down with a good chip if there was any trouble just because I was unfamiliar with the course. Those courses are quirky. ESA and OB everywhere and they don't want you in there looking for balls.

[MEfree]

Altitude is 9 K feet, so the ball really flies.

I think I figured out why the fairway runs out- it is so people don't drive their carts down the hill.  As you can see, the cart path has a sideways V to it and there are signs saying cart path only at that point.  The lack of fairway helps define when it should be cart path only.  The cart path has multiple speed bumps on it from the tee down to the fairway, so not having the carts get out of control is a big concern.

[Dave2512]

Really flies in an understatement. I hit balls up there that made the claims in the 300 yd drive threads seem modest.

[k-troop]

#9 at Keswick Club in Charlottesville VA is like this. 490 par-4 from the tips, into the wind usually. Tee shot is downhill and fairway slopes hard downhill and to the left from about 250 off the tee, then runs out at about 310. Typical 2nd shot is about 200 with the ball above your feet into a narrow, elevated green. Due to the orientation and slope of the green you have to hit a fade, but again ball is usually above your feet. Very hard hole.

[Golfingdad]

#16 Keystone River Golf Course in Colorado- Extremely downhill par 4 with a slight dog leg to the left

I think this picture shows the gold and red tee boxes.  The white, blue and black tee boxes are behind and to the photographer's left.

Blacks 509 yards

Blues 497 yards

While 448

Gold 427

Red 395

Fairway has multiple tiers and mostly slopes from right to left.  From the whites, the fairway runs out at 250 yards and turns into 2-3" rough.  The main problem I have with the hole is picking the right club off the tee as you get a much different bounce depending on whether you land on the flatter section of a tier or the sloped section between the tiers.  It also makes a huge difference if you land in a dry or wetter spot.  Take too little club and you are left with 220+ to the green.  Take too much club and the fairway falls to the left into scrub bushes or go through the right side and it falls right to long grass and OOB.

Similar to above, but a bit lower down.

Here is the aerial

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Keystone+Ranch+Golf+Course≪=39.593577,-105.995112&spn;=0.003807,0.008256&fb;=1≷=us&hq;=keystone+golf+course&hnear;=0x874014749b1856b7:0xc75483314990a7ff,Colorado&cid;=0,0,13240230494915743703&t;=h&z;=18

Based on that aerial, it looks like it's somewhere in the vicinity of 295 yards from the blue tees to the end of the fairway.  On flat ground down here it would take a perfect drive for me to hit it that far, however, up in the Rockies and with such a severe downhill drop, it would be very easy.

Granted I have a lot less info than you since I've never been there, but ased on the fact that it seems extremely undesireable to be in the rough beyond the end of the fairway, there is no reason at all to risk getting close to it.  Take the 3 wood or hybrid and ideally put it in the fairway 220 out.  At that altitude and with what looks like another severe drop from fairway to green, we're talking about a 5 iron maybe.  No reason to think it's not possible to par that way, and I don't think I'd be too bummed out with a bogey either.

[Spitfisher]

I think this is a poorly designed hole. Can't tell from the pictures but is there a reason the fairway ends 250 yards from the tee? I suppose the architect wanted to tempt the better player to carry to the next fairway but it causes the average golfer to have to lay up. I would think that for me with the elevation and drop shot effect, a 3 hybrid that I normally hit 185 would be the best choice off the tee. The issue is the long second shot. I hope missed approaches aren't heavily penalized. Then again, it's a long par 4 for a mid to high-handicapper even with the elevation.

This isn't directed to you.

The average male golfer hits their drive 210-215, average male better golfer 240-250- so I would have to agree the design is correct. Also considering the elevation from tee to fairway the ball is descending at a steep angle- read not much roll.

I also feel if this hole plays to a par four, agreed a difficult one, your handicap of say a 10. If you are 220 yards out on your second shot into the green on a par four- you likely are playing from the wrong set of tees. Move up and speed up the game.

[Golfingdad]

I think this is a poorly designed hole. Can't tell from the pictures but is there a reason the fairway ends 250 yards from the tee? I suppose the architect wanted to tempt the better player to carry to the next fairway but it causes the average golfer to have to lay up. I would think that for me with the elevation and drop shot effect, a 3 hybrid that I normally hit 185 would be the best choice off the tee. The issue is the long second shot. I hope missed approaches aren't heavily penalized. Then again, it's a long par 4 for a mid to high-handicapper even with the elevation.

I also feel if this hole plays to a par four, agreed a difficult one, your handicap of say a 10. If you are 220 yards out on your second shot into the green on a par four- you likely are playing from the wrong set of tees. Move up and speed up the game.

I looked at it again, and I see mschott's point.  Moving up isn't helping much because the fairway ends and demands that you keep it short of that.  If you are a weak hitting 30 handicapper who hits driver 210, and you are playing the most forward set of tees, then you are at risk of running through the end of the fairway, so you'll probably have to lay up.  A perfectly placed fairway wood from the most forward set of tees (190 yards or so) puts you at about 190 yards out for your second shot.  That's a really, really tough hole.

[MEfree]

The average male golfer hits their drive 210-215, average male better golfer 240-250- so I would have to agree the design is correct. Also considering the elevation from tee to fairway the ball is descending at a steep angle- read not much roll.

My issue with the hole is that the amount of roll you get is completely unpredictable.  I hit a high ball that doesn't tend roll much with my 5w, 4i, or 5i when it lands on flat ground of medium firmness.  Here, the "level" part of the fairway is still a bit down sloping, and my ball won't run much if it hits a softer spot, but will run more if it lands on a firmer spot.  OTOH, If I land between tiers, then it might roll 50 yards.  Put another way, if I land on the 2nd to last tier, my ball will stay on that tier when the fairways are soft, but less predictable when they are firm.  OTOH, if I land between the 2nd and 3rd to last tier, it will hit on the down slope and shoot forward, possibly running through the end of the fairway.  Basically, less carry can translate into more roll depending on where exactly you land.

[Golfingdad]

My issue with the hole is that the amount of roll you get is completely unpredictable.  I hit a high ball that doesn't tend roll much with my 5w, 4i, or 5i when it lands on flat ground of medium firmness.  Here, the "level" part of the fairway is still a bit down sloping, and my ball won't run much if it hits a softer spot, but will run more if it lands on a firmer spot.  OTOH, If I land between tiers, then it might roll 50 yards.  Put another way, if I land on the 2nd to last tier, my ball will stay on that tier when the fairways are soft, but less predictable when they are firm.  OTOH, if I land between the 2nd and 3rd to last tier, it will hit on the down slope and shoot forward, possibly running through the end of the fairway.  Basically, less carry can translate into more roll depending on where exactly you land.

Sounds like you need to learn to play a low running shot then.  That way, it won't matter nearly as much where on the fairway you land, as it will roll a lot regardless. :)

Learn Tiger's "stinger."  :)

[Dave2512]

Isn't the roll unpredictable on any hole/course? Down here the quality of the shot plays a part as much as anything. I track pretty much everything and my individual hole stats vary greatly. Even course familiarity isn't enough to ensure us hacks always hit the same shot to the same area of fairway every time out. In fact I have the opposite issue at my home course in that many of the holes play uphill. The best position comes from hitting a low draw that rolls out but despite best efforts I don't pull it off every time. Either way that is golf. You play the shot you have and end up with and hope it works out.

[MEfree]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Sounds like you need to learn to play a low running shot then.  That way, it won't matter nearly as much where on the fairway you land, as it will roll a lot regardless. :)

Learn Tiger's "stinger."  :)

Yes, I think you are right...I guess my frustration comes in that my distance control on approach shots has been very good this season, even with my 5w & 4i, but I can't seem to control the distance very well on this tee shot- sometimes it works perfectly, but the next time the "same" feeling shot can be 20 yards shoter or 30 yards longer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I think the issue may be that I hit a high ball that lands soft with little roll on level ground, but will run a lot when it lands on one of the severe down slopes between the tiers.  I don't really have the shot (especially from an elevated tee), but I think a very low stingger may be the way to go as that will roll a lot regardless of where it lands??

[Golfingdad]

I think the issue may be that I hit a high ball that lands soft with little roll on level ground, but will run a lot when it lands on one of the severe down slopes between the tiers. I don't really have the shot (especially from an elevated tee), but I think a very low stingger may be the way to go as that will roll a lot regardless of where it lands??

Whoops I didn't see that post, lol.  Yes, I think that is your best answer.