Sean Foley on Charlie Rose

[Mr. Desmond]

That's where it's hard to tell if he's truly modest, fake modest or just covering his a$$.  I think he see's how many people blame Haney for Tiger's problems on the course towards the end of their relationship and is concerned if Tiger doesn't beat Jack, he could be tainted like Haney.  If you say I'm "just" his coach, he's the genius, it appears as though he's not responsible for the good or the bad results which is a calculated risk.

I also thought it was interesting he has been working with Hunter the longest but spoke about him the least.  I don't know if that was because Charlie Rose didn't show interest in Hunter or an indication of some problems between the two.

Good points.

As to Hunter, that's the student that is not really progressing -- but it's Hunter's short game, I believe, that is holding him back.

Tiger is not really progressing - he did well at the beginning of the year, had the one tourney in the summer, and was majorly bad on major weekends with inconsistency.

I think Sean is covering himself to an extent.

[Jakester23]

Good points. As to Hunter, that's the student that is not really progressing -- but it's Hunter's short game, I believe, that is holding him back. Tiger is not really progressing - he did well at the beginning of the year, had the one tourney in the summer, and was majorly bad on major weekends with inconsistency. I think Sean is covering himself to an extent.

You really think in the last few years Tiger hasn't improved?

[iacas]

Is this the way it went? Discovered it, discussed and debated it with the S&T; community, but posted only when the principals insisted they were correct and were not open to the real data...

I'm not going to say much here except to say these three things:

1. We "split" from S&T; over four years ago. Even before that we never taught it the way it was taught by virtually everyone else (then or now).
2. I think you tend to drastically over-estimate the amount of discourse the "S&T; community" has within itself.
3. S&T; remains a good book to read (I don't recommend the DVDs at all anymore - they'll put you to sleep (1.0) and/or contain factually incorrect stuff (2.0)) and a good pattern to implement in pieces for the beginner golfer.

The problem with #3 is that the beginner needs guidance, so they'd ostensibly find an S&T; instructor, but given #1 that can likely lead to issues in the intermediate and long term development of their swing and game. I mean, seriously?

Executive Summary: We've always been evolving. It's right in the name. S&T; is not. Andy will tell you flat out the swing hasn't changed.

---

Now, back to discussing Sean Foley, please. I don't know where this conversation can continue, but it probably shouldn't, since I've said about all I intend to say. :)

You really think in the last few years Tiger hasn't improved?

Of course he has (you weren't asking me, but I'm answering).

I think Sean was not only covering his own ass, but mores covering Tiger's ass. I think one of Tiger's "problems" is one of his own creation - he made everyone forget how damn difficult it is to win a major by winning so many so quickly.

So in saying what he said, he sought to take a little pressure off Tiger and remind us all that it's difficult to win a major. Tiger's older now, and so it's even that little bit more difficult.

[Mr. Desmond]

You really think in the last few years Tiger hasn't improved?

No, I think his iron and short game have improved. His driver is still woefully inconsistent, and his putting ... brilliant then less than average.

Tiger had an inconsistent driver with Hank, but all other segments of his game worked, especially the long irons, I believe, and that putter really saved him.

Recently, his short pitches have glitches, his driver is inconsistent and sometimes nonexistent, and the putter ... meh. His game just lacks the consistency it had with his previous coaches.

Lots of work ... but as Foley said, these guys are geniuses, he's just the coach. And he has the 37 yr old Tiger... What he doesn't tell you is that most players hit their peak in their 30's and it climbs for a while, into early 40's - Phil is 43 and just won a major.

[Mr. Desmond]

Now, back to discussing Sean Foley, please. I don't know where this conversation can continue, but it probably shouldn't, since I've said about all I intend to say. :)

Of course he has (you weren't asking me, but I'm answering).

I think Sean was not only covering his own ass, but mores covering Tiger's ass. I think one of Tiger's "problems" is one of his own creation - he made everyone forget how damn difficult it is to win a major by winning so many so quickly.

So in saying what he said, he sought to take a little pressure off Tiger and remind us all that it's difficult to win a major. Tiger's older now, and so it's even that little bit more difficult.

You've got a great point here ... Sean also plays mind coach, and Tiger puts a lot of pressure on himself. So Foley would be taking a sound mental approach if that is his objective. You could see Tiger press ...

[deronsizemore]

Mike and Andy... seem more concerned with being right than helping people improve in golf

What's your source? Andy seems to do quite a bit to help people improve, actually. He's been more than gracious with his personal time with me.

[Ernest Jones]

LOL. I finally had a chance to watch this. I like the part where he says, "Tiger just had Luke Donald's career in 8 weeks."

[iacas]

What's your source? Andy seems to do quite a bit to help people improve, actually. He's been more than gracious with his personal time with me.

Deron, this thread's not about that (it diverged briefly, but ended at post #21), but it's good seeing you pop back in again. Hope you can stick around.

[deronsizemore]

Deron, this thread's not about that (it diverged briefly, but ended at post #21), but it's good seeing you pop back in again. Hope you can stick around. :-)

I'm usually around. Just not much time to actually interact or post anything. :)

[mvmac]

LOL. I finally had a chance to watch this. I like the part where he says, "Tiger just had Luke Donald's career in 8 weeks."

Put things in perspective doesn't it?

[k-troop]

No, I think his iron and short game have improved. His driver is still woefully inconsistent, and his putting ... brilliant then less than average.

Tiger had an inconsistent driver with Hank, but all other segments of his game worked, especially the long irons, I believe, and that putter really saved him.

Recently, his short pitches have glitches, his driver is inconsistent and sometimes nonexistent, and the putter ... meh. His game just lacks the consistency it had with his previous coaches.

Here's what I don't get.  Tiger was like top-3 in total driving (IIRC) up until the US Open, and then was just horrendous the second half of the season.  I think he finished (or is currently, not sure how they do the "year" stats now) worse than 50th in both driving distance and accuracy.  What changed?  Is it just the California/Florida effect?  Cumulative pressure of missed major opportunities building on him as the season progressed?

I'm looking at Tiger's season trying to find patterns, but it's hard to figure out what it was--other than repeated disappointment in the majors.  He bookended two majors with great tournaments (wins before and after the Masters; win prior to the PGA and finished one shot back in his next tournament after).  You can't help but wonder what would have happened if he won the Masters and got that monkey off of his back early in the season.  And he really should have won it--it was just bad luck that he didn't.

[nevets88]

LOL. I finally had a chance to watch this. I like the part where he says, "Tiger just had Luke Donald's career in 8 weeks."

Put things in perspective doesn't it?

"Tiger just had Luke Donald's career in 8 weeks."

• On a knee that's been operated on 4(?) times.
• With a swing that's been modified 3 times.
• At an age where career is winding down.

[Ernest Jones]

"Tiger just had Luke Donald's career in 8 weeks." [LIST] [*] On a knee that's been operated on 4(?) times.  [*] With a swing that's been modified 3 times.  [*] At an age where career is winding down. [/LIST]

Greatest ever! Shhhhhh...don't tell Phan, Birly or Rick Martin!

[iacas]

FWIW, Tiger's 2013 Driving Stats (some, not all):

Total Driving - 17th

Driving Distance - 49th (293.2 yards)

Driving Accuracy - 69th (62.5%)

[3putter]

FWIW, Tiger's 2013 Driving Stats (some, not all):

Total Driving - 17th

Driving Distance - 49th (293.2 yards)

Driving Accuracy - 69th (62.5%)

So the question is why do some think he's worse than the data show? BTW, some of the misses in that accuracy stat are in the first cut.

[Mr. Desmond]

So the question is why do some think he's worse than the data show? BTW, some of the misses in that accuracy stat are in the first cut.

Maybe because he left his driver out of the bag and used it a lot less as the year wore on... in one major, he rarely pulled driver, leaving him 225-250 yard approaches. You have as much of a chance at winning as showing up at a Perkins expecting to take a girl home... and then Tiger shows up.

Show over.

[newtogolf]

FWIW, Tiger's 2013 Driving Stats (some, not all):

Total Driving - 17th

Driving Distance - 49th (293.2 yards)

Driving Accuracy - 69th (62.5%)

Is Driving Accuracy based on every drive or just 2 drives like Driving Distance is measured?

[iacas]

Is Driving Accuracy based on every drive or just 2 drives like Driving Distance is measured?

Every drive.

FWIW the text at the bottom of any PGA Tour stat thing shows how it's calculated. When it doesn't say something like "These drives are measured on two holes per round. Care is taken to select two holes which face in opposite directions to counteract the effect of wind." that means it's every (applicable) shot.