Pace Problem

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Think of the math in dollars and cents.

8 minute interval = 30 golfers per hour starting

12 minute interval = 20 gofers per hour starting

If the course charges $40 per golfer that is potentially a $400 per hour loss of revenue.  How many businesses do you know of that could take that hit and stay in business?

Even dropping to 10 minutes is still $200 per hour in lost opportunity for income.

My home course staggers 8 and 9 minute intervals from open until 10:30, then 9 minutes for the rest of the day.  The difference is approximately one foursome per hour.  In midsummer that means that they get 4 more players per hour for the first 5 hours - 20 more players at $40 each is $800 a day.  That alone covers most or all of the salaries paid to the shop staff and seasonal workers.

Playing with the intervals is playing with money, not just time.

And that is why there are 5.5 hour rounds on lots of public courses on the weekends. If you want people to average 15 minutes a hole for a four and a half hour round, then spacing tee times every 8 minutes is a recipe for disaster.

Why?  If the course is an easy course with few situations where a ball might be lost, then there is no reason at all to think that 8 minute spacing should be a problem.    I know that my typical group can play their tee shots, move up the hole, play seconds and be out of range in about 6-7 minutes without being rushed.  I find that with 9 or 10 minute intervals, we usually have to wait on the first tee for 2 or 3 minutes after the group ahead is well out of range, sometimes until they are almost done putting before our starting time comes up.

Give some actual reasons for your bald statement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ballsndrama

Keep track of offending parties then don't allow them to have early tee times. Let the faster guys and girls go first in the morning then let the hackers. Tell everyone tee times are determined by play speed history, which you keep track of. When 5 hour fivesomes wanna play, let them tee off at 1 or 2 pm. They'll speed up when it starts getting dark.

Can't do it on a public course which caters to a customer base of thousands, many of whom may only play that course once or twice in a season.  No possible way to track them.  And on a course which is partially tax funded, you can't give preferential treatment to anyone.  Unrestricted fivesomes are a bad idea at any time.

[Cartboy]

The Florida course I was Supervisor at last Winter had shotguns at 8:00 and 1:00 one or two days a week.  It was really hectic for the staff the hour before each of those starts, and then really slow other than those two hours . . . so it is not very conducive for scheduling staff.

The 12:00-1:00 hour was a pure nightmare with 200-plus bags in the bagroom with some members arriving and some leaving, and no place to park in the parking lot.  Cart turnover was hectic, too, with some of the 1:00 groups having to wait for carts.

I had two buddies from my Northern course come play at 1:00 on a Monday and they couldn't believe the crowd.

[David in FL]

A shotgun on a busy day will absolutely guarantee that everyone suffers equally. Kill me now.....

[Fourputt]

A shotgun on a busy day will absolutely guarantee that everyone suffers equally.

Kill me now.....

Amen to that!!!  For a 7:30 full course shotgun I would report at 5 and immediately start lining up carts at the 4 access points around the clubhouse.  That was as good a workout as walking 9 holes.  By 6:30 we would be ready with name plates, scorecards and instruction sheets on each cart.  Players trickle in starting about then, maybe 25-30% head up to the range (not a problem as the grass range has 50 hitting positions), the rest all trying to use the putting green... I've seen as many as 50 players over there trying to find an open space.  Then they all have to stop in the golf shop to find a souvenir, even if they only live across town.  Finally Four of us hop into a cart and lead each line out on the course, instructing each cart what they drop off at.  We no longer use a gun to start the action, so about 10 minutes after we headed out, the pro would drive to a spot near the middle of the course and blow an air horn.

Then like Cartboy said, boredom for 4 hours (I did have to still work with the Executive 9, but only starting for one course was nothing) until they get about 1/2 hour from finishing and the public players start showing up and checking in for afternoon play.  We actually had one private group which reserved the entire property, the 18 hole course and both 9 hole courses, range and restaurant for 7 hours.

[jsgolfer]

Why?  If the course is an easy course with few situations where a ball might be lost, then there is no reason at all to think that 8 minute spacing should be a problem.    I know that my typical group can play their tee shots, move up the hole, play seconds and be out of range in about 6-7 minutes without being rushed.  I find that with 9 or 10 minute intervals, we usually have to wait on the first tee for 2 or 3 minutes after the group ahead is well out of range, sometimes until they are almost done putting before our starting time comes up. Give some actual reasons for your bald statement.

You mean bold statement? Didn't think it was that bold, just going off my 35 years of playing mostly munis until a couple of years ago. But unless you play every hole in that amount of time or somewhere close, as soon as you run up on a harder hole, a reachable par 5 or searching for lost balls, then IMO you will start backing up. And you may be right on a easy course, but in No. VA I have never played a round on a weekend morning that didn't take 5 hours. And in most cases it has been even more. The private course I play has 10 minute tee times and 4 hours is the norm. Private course I played yesterday had 10 minute tee times, tee sheet was packed due to the good weather. Played in 3.45. And if you had to wait a few minutes on the first tee but got to play at a better pace, the problem would be?

[Mulligan Jeff]

My son worked at one of the top municipal courses in our area for several years. On the days he took the role of course marshal here's what took place. Foursome playing extremely slow, group behind them complaining. Slow foursome gets first warning to pick up the pace. By the time they complete the first 9 holes they are one hole behind group in front of them. On back 9 couple holes later slow group is two holes behind group in front of them. Marshal approaches group and says you are two holes behind group in front of you and that is not tolerated, the general manager told me to have you skip the next two holes in order to bring pace of play to where it belongs. Marshal states you have disrupted all groups behind you. Slow group gives him slack about blah, blah, blah. Marshal says if you don't then you'll be asked to leave.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Why?  If the course is an easy course with few situations where a ball might be lost, then there is no reason at all to think that 8 minute spacing should be a problem.    I know that my typical group can play their tee shots, move up the hole, play seconds and be out of range in about 6-7 minutes without being rushed.  I find that with 9 or 10 minute intervals, we usually have to wait on the first tee for 2 or 3 minutes after the group ahead is well out of range, sometimes until they are almost done putting before our starting time comes up.

Give some actual reasons for your bald statement.

You mean bold statement?

Didn't think it was that bold, just going off my 35 years of playing mostly munis until a couple of years ago.

But unless you play every hole in that amount of time or somewhere close, as soon as you run up on a harder hole, a reachable par 5 or searching for lost balls, then IMO you will start backing up. And you may be right on a easy course, but in No. VA I have never played a round on a weekend morning that didn't take 5 hours. And in most cases it has been even more.

The private course I play has 10 minute tee times and 4 hours is the norm. Private course I played yesterday had 10 minute tee times, tee sheet was packed due to the good weather. Played in 3.45.

And if you had to wait a few minutes on the first tee but got to play at a better pace, the problem would be?

You can't compare what private courses have the luxury of doing to what daily fee courses must do to survive.  That's like comparing a Motel 6 to the Hilton.  I've played some very nice munis, but they also come with higher fees.  One that I've played often is $65 to walk (non-resident), and $17 more for a cart.  It's $10 less Mon-Thur.  They have 10 minute intervals.  My home course has 8-9 staggered interval until 10:30, then 9 minutes after that, and it costs $40 to walk Fri-Sun (non-resident), plus $14 if you want a cart - still not a bargain basement price, but also not a run down, beat up course either - and it makes a good profit every year.

The difference is that you will sometimes have short to middling waits on 3 or 4 tee boxes on my home course, yet the course has the potential to play faster on the whole because it doesn't have as much ball eating trouble.  Just because you aren't waiting on the tee doesn't necessarily mean that the course plays any faster.  It just means that you are taking as long to play as the groups in front of you.

[R11driver]

So playing in my company golf league this past season was a very unpleasant experience because of slow play. I'm talking 3 plus hours for 9 holes. Spring and fall rounds were literally finished in the dark. After numerous unanswered complaints to the league officials to do something about the 2 or 3 people responsible, I ended up taking the matter into my own hands and ended the season a pretty unpopular guy. Not that I cared that much because 3 hour rounds for 9 holes is nothing but absurd. I don't think I was mean but I made no bones about the fact that some people needed to speed up. Some did, some didn't. When I say 2 or 3 people, each is on a separate team which on league night means 2 or 3 foursomes end up being slow. That makes up at least half the league. I'm up in the air about joining this league again in the spring. My partner is talking about starting his own league. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But it's clear the current league officials have no interest in addressing the problem. What have people here done to address slow play in their leagues or local courses.

[D-Man]

I think a league with people you work with is going to be more social than other leagues.  You're most likely going to be talking shop while you're playing.  Guys sucking up for thier next promotion ect.  If you voiced your concern and nothing happened I think you either have to just deal with it or find another league.  Did you try talking to the individuals that are gulty directly?

[Fourputt]

I recommend that you learn how to use the search function.  There is another thread on the same subject called "Pace Problem" on the second page of the index.

To answer your question, my Men's Club instituted it's own pace of play policy with penalties attached for noncompliance.

[Cartboy]

I recommend that you learn how to use the search function.  There is another thread on the same subject called "Pace Problem" on the second page of the index.

You talkin' to me?

[neophyte]

Too many courses are forced to try to make a profit and are concerned with total revenue for the day.  If they can collect the money and get the most players off the first T they have reached their goal.  They have collected maximum revenue for the day.

If pace of play causes revenue to drop, then and only then will course owners do more that talk about it.

Most courses that I play that are slow will not put slow players out in twosomes or in individual carts to speed up play.

Will not hire extra staff and buy extra mowers to cut rough.  Will not put in cart paths closer to the greens.  One course I play has the cart path 45 yards from the center of the green with sand traps on both sides of the green.  Picture how long it takes golfers to walk almost 100 yards to the sand trap on the far side of the green,  get in and hit their sand shot, rake the sand get out of bunker, and chip onto green then walk about 30 to 40 yards to their ball and lag and putt in.  Do you really think they are going to remove the bunkers and remove the old concrete cart path and put in closer cart paths.

Two weeks ago, I had a 20 foot putt that went to the hole turned around and rolled back to me.  Do you think the course is going to redo the contour on this green?  too expensive.  PS a minimum wage - non golfer cuts the holes.

Too many courses are struggling to keep greens green. Appears they can't afford the chemicals.

A good marshal is a tough job.  Who wants to do battle with jerks for minimum wage?

Why are courses for normal golfers designed and built as a mini Oakmont?

In summary courses are cutting back on expenses, and doing what ever they can to increase revenue.  And it appears that fixing pace of play is an expensive and tough fix, if it can be fixed.

[Cartboy]

Too many courses are forced to try to make a profit and are concerned with total revenue for the day.  If they can collect the money and get the most players off the first T they have reached their goal.  They have collected maximum revenue for the day.

If pace of play causes revenue to drop, then and only then will course owners do more that talk about it.

Most courses that I play that are slow will not put slow players out in twosomes or in individual carts to speed up play.

Will not hire extra staff and buy extra mowers to cut rough.  Will not put in cart paths closer to the greens.  One course I play has the cart path 45 yards from the center of the green with sand traps on both sides of the green.  Picture how long it takes golfers to walk almost 100 yards to the sand trap on the far side of the green,  get in and hit their sand shot, rake the sand get out of bunker, and chip onto green then walk about 30 to 40 yards to their ball and lag and putt in.  Do you really think they are going to remove the bunkers and remove the old concrete cart path and put in closer cart paths.

Two weeks ago, I had a 20 foot putt that went to the hole turned around and rolled back to me.  Do you think the course is going to redo the contour on this green?  too expensive.  PS a minimum wage - non golfer cuts the holes.

Too many courses are struggling to keep greens green. Appears they can't afford the chemicals.

A good marshal is a tough job.  Who wants to do battle with jerks for minimum wage?

Why are courses for normal golfers designed and built as a mini Oakmont?

In summary courses are cutting back on expenses, and doing what ever they can to increase revenue.  And it appears that fixing pace of play is an expensive and tough fix, if it can be fixed.

Substitute "can't" for "won't" when it comes to spending more money, and that's my course.

[caniac6]

My son worked at one of the top municipal courses in our area for several years. On the days he took the role of course marshal here's what took place. Foursome playing extremely slow, group behind them complaining. Slow foursome gets first warning to pick up the pace. By the time they complete the first 9 holes they are one hole behind group in front of them. On back 9 couple holes later slow group is two holes behind group in front of them. Marshal approaches group and says you are two holes behind group in front of you and that is not tolerated, the general manager told me to have you skip the next two holes in order to bring pace of play to where it belongs. Marshal states you have disrupted all groups behind you. Slow group gives him slack about blah, blah, blah. Marshal says if you don't then you'll be asked to leave.

So, what happened?

[Cartboy]

So, what happened?

Same thing has happened to me.  This past season, here's what happened:

I stayed an hour late to help the transition to the afternoon crew, because the shotgun event that started at 9:00 AM had all the tee times and all the groups behind them backed up.  The other guy working with me had marshaled early, and told me one of the groups was behind and mouthy.  When I went out, that group, the third one in the shotgun, was two holes behind the group in front of them, and the group behind them was a hole behind, so there was no pressure to speed up.

I waited for them on the next tee box, so as to not bother their putting.  They blew by me like I didn't exist . . . laughing, smoking cigars, drinking beer, etc.  I went to them and told them they had been warned once, that they were on close to a 6-hour pace, and they needed to speed up.  A long-haired, mouthy dude ripped me a new one.  I went back to my other duties.

Almost as soon as I got home, the GM called, asking, "What did you do to those guys in the shotgun?  They said they're never bringing their group back again."  I told him, and then said, "How long they been in?"  He said, "Just got in."  I said, "Look at your watch."  He said, "Oh, five and a half hours, sorry."

I am the longest tenured employee at the course, marshaled or was Starter fulltime for three years, and since that day I don't sense that the GM (our third in five years) or the Pro trust me to understand the course (which is second nature and automatic to me) and be able to deal with problems customers diplomatically.

That's why I am pushing for a policy, one that says the Marshal/Player Services person gives the first two warnings and the GM or Pro deal with problem groups after that.

[RayG]

So playing in my company golf league this past season was a very unpleasant experience because of slow play. I'm talking 3 plus hours for 9 holes. Spring and fall rounds were literally finished in the dark. After numerous unanswered complaints to the league officials to do something about the 2 or 3 people responsible, I ended up taking the matter into my own hands and ended the season a pretty unpopular guy. Not that I cared that much because 3 hour rounds for 9 holes is nothing but absurd. I don't think I was mean but I made no bones about the fact that some people needed to speed up. Some did, some didn't. When I say 2 or 3 people, each is on a separate team which on league night means 2 or 3 foursomes end up being slow. That makes up at least half the league. I'm up in the air about joining this league again in the spring. My partner is talking about starting his own league. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. But it's clear the current league officials have no interest in addressing the problem. What have people here done to address slow play in their leagues or local courses.

If everyone agrees on who the pokes are, schedule them in the LAST groups of the day in the same grouping. Every time. If they ask "why are we always in the last group?". Tell them "Because the rest of us like to be home before Christmas".

[Cartboy]

I've noticed that most golfers don't get the "While we're young," comment.

My guess they haven't seen the TV ad with Arnold Palmer telling Clint Eastwood that.

[David in FL]

I've noticed that most golfers don't get the "While we're young," comment. My guess they haven't seen the TV ad with Arnold Palmer telling Clint Eastwood that.

Are they still running them? I haven't seen much of those lately. I'd hoped it would be a long running, intense campaign.