Pace Problem

[nevets88]

Yeah, I'd definitely pay a premium if I was guaranteed a 3.5 - 4 hour round, 20% up to, I dunno, $25-$35. But the doubting Thomas in me says, what kind of dark magic does the course employ to guarantee this? I'd be a bit dubious of the guarantee. I guess if the round went long and I got my surcharge back, it would be okay, but I'd be disappointed.

[Robster 7]

The worst thing they ever did was make golf 18 holes. It should've been 12 holes. That way the divorce courts would've been a lot less busy the last 30 yrs or so!;-)

[wils5150]

Oh believe me Wils, some of the slowest players I know are good players. The difference is that their slow play is usually down to the slow routine that they have to complete start to finish even on two foot putts rather than the higher handicap that just takes a lot of shots. My personal favourite is the bloke who hits it 210 off the tee all day and then waits for the Par 5 green to clear just in case he hits his one in a lifetime shot from 250 with a 3 wood!

What it boils down to is that you won't know you're slow unless you are told. If someone I respected told me I was slow, I'd be mortified and would do something about it. I'm not though( for the record)

ya the waiting on a par 5 is a killer

[Lihu]

Yeah, I'd definitely pay a premium if I was guaranteed a 3.5 - 4 hour round, 20% up to, I dunno, $25-$35. But the doubting Thomas in me says, what kind of dark magic does the course employ to guarantee this? I'd be a bit dubious of the guarantee. I guess if the round went long and I got my surcharge back, it would be okay, but I'd be disappointed.

I'd really prefer not to know.

Seriously, I wish people would go out on the course with the mindset that they have 3 minutes per hole to do their stuff. This will guarantee a fairly distributed 13 minute hole time for foursomes and about a 4 hour round. 5 minute lost ball time should be made up in subsequent holes, on your own time.

[wils5150]

Yeah, I'd definitely pay a premium if I was guaranteed a 3.5 - 4 hour round, 20% up to, I dunno, $25-$35. But the doubting Thomas in me says, what kind of dark magic does the course employ to guarantee this? I'd be a bit dubious of the guarantee. I guess if the round went long and I got my surcharge back, it would be okay, but I'd be disappointed.

what we could do is double the price and only have half the tee times. I know of several ways to speed up play but sadly most golfers wouldnt like them much.

[Fourputt]

What it boils down to is that you won't know you're slow unless you are told. If someone I respected told me I was slow, I'd be mortified and would do something about it. I'm not though( for the record)

I have to disagree with this.  If you can read a watch you can tell if you are slow.  If you start at the tee time directly after the group in front of you, then never see them again, you are slow.  If the group behind you is consistently waiting on you, you are slow.  If you are fiddling around with things not related to making the shot at hand, you are slow.  If you aren't ready to hit when it's your turn, you are slow.

All of those are things you should be able to figure out for yourself.  You shouldn't need to be told.

[Robster 7]

what we could do is double the price and only have half the tee times. I know of several ways to speed up play but sadly most golfers wouldnt like them much.

I think that's called Augusta National! :-)

[Lihu]

what we could do is double the price and only have half the tee times. I know of several ways to speed up play but sadly most golfers wouldnt like them much.

Please share them.

[Robster 7]

I have to disagree with this.  If you can read a watch you can tell if you are slow.  If you start at the tee time directly after the group in front of you, then never see them again, you are slow.  If the group behind you is consistently waiting on you, you are slow.  If you are fiddling around with things not related to making the shot at hand, you are slow.  If you aren't ready to hit when it's your turn, you are slow. All of those are things you should be able to figure out for yourself.  You shouldn't need to be told.

Most of your points are true however most golfers are blissfully unaware of this. If the group behind is consistently waiting on me it is because I'm waiting on the group in front.

[Lihu]

I have to disagree with this.  If you can read a watch you can tell if you are slow.  If you start at the tee time directly after the group in front of you, then never see them again, you are slow.  If the group behind you is consistently waiting on you, you are slow.  If you are fiddling around with things not related to making the shot at hand, you are slow.  If you aren't ready to hit when it's your turn, you are slow.

All of those are things you should be able to figure out for yourself.  You shouldn't need to be told.

Disillusioned people have no idea that they are holding anyone up.

[wils5150]

Please share them.

1. stop trying to cram so many players on the course. spread out tee times and maybe charge a bit more.

2. have more rangers out there keeping tabs on things

3. tell the golfers what tees they are playing. ( i don't care how far you hit it if your handicap is say 16 you are playing from the white tees for example)

4. slow down green speed ( I can't tell you how many people think the can handle fast greens but really can't)

being in the business for 25 plus years I really believe in # 3 and 4

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I have to disagree with this.  If you can read a watch you can tell if you are slow.  If you start at the tee time directly after the group in front of you, then never see them again, you are slow.  If the group behind you is consistently waiting on you, you are slow.  If you are fiddling around with things not related to making the shot at hand, you are slow.  If you aren't ready to hit when it's your turn, you are slow.

All of those are things you should be able to figure out for yourself.  You shouldn't need to be told.

Most of your points are true however most golfers are blissfully unaware of this. If the group behind is consistently waiting on me it is because I'm waiting on the group in front.

It's that blissful ignorance which the course must take the responsibility for shattering.  If courses want players to play a good pace, then the courses must make them aware of what that pace is, how to achieve it, and how it is enforced.  We aren't born with an instinct for pace of play, it must be learned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I have to disagree with this.  If you can read a watch you can tell if you are slow.  If you start at the tee time directly after the group in front of you, then never see them again, you are slow.  If the group behind you is consistently waiting on you, you are slow.  If you are fiddling around with things not related to making the shot at hand, you are slow.  If you aren't ready to hit when it's your turn, you are slow.

All of those are things you should be able to figure out for yourself.  You shouldn't need to be told.

Disillusioned people have no idea that they are holding anyone up.

Those people wouldn't be disillusioned, they would living the illusion.

[Dave2512]

1. stop trying to cram so many players on the course. spread out tee times and maybe charge a bit more.

2. have more rangers out there keeping tabs on things

3. tell the golfers what tees they are playing. ( i don't care how far you hit it if your handicap is say 16 you are playing from the white tees for example)

4. slow down green speed ( I can't tell you how many people think the can handle fast greens but really can't)

being in the business for 25 plus years I really believe in # 3 and 4

I don't mind fast greens but I question hole placements often. Enough so I complain about it. My home course posts tee recommendations based on handicap but I see it ignored more than I'd like. Rangers are rarely out late afternoon when I am there. IMO handicap is directly related to consistency from tee to green. I've never seen a high handicap golfer that is just good from the tee, never. For every good shot several bad ones follow. Often spending more time than they should looking for errant shots. The bad contact is usually the result of trying to kill it.

[wils5150]

I don't mind fast greens but I question hole placements often. Enough so I complain about it. My home course posts tee recommendations based on handicap but I see it ignored more than I'd like. Rangers are rarely out late afternoon when I am there. IMO handicap is directly related to consistency from tee to green. I've never seen a high handicap golfer that is just good from the tee, never. For every good shot several bad ones follow. Often spending more time than they should looking for errant shots. The bad contact is usually the result of trying to kill it.

Dave what is it about the hole locations you dislike?

[Spitfisher]

I read somewhere that if your course, private, semi or public has rangers and a pro/gm on site, and they allow rounds to take more than 4:15 on any given Saturday........

well they don't give a crap, period. Concern over Slow play is just lip service they tell people.

the weak shall inherit the earth!

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Please share them.

1. stop trying to cram so many players on the course. spread out tee times and maybe charge a bit more.

2. have more rangers out there keeping tabs on things

3. tell the golfers what tees they are playing. ( i don't care how far you hit it if your handicap is say 16 you are playing from the white tees for example)

4. slow down green speed ( I can't tell you how many people think the can handle fast greens but really can't)

being in the business for 25 plus years I really believe in # 3 and 4

1) Reducing the number of players depends on what the current tee time spread is.  My experience has shown that when you dip under 9 minutes, it starts causing problems.  If you reduce the number of players, there is no maybe about it, you would definitely have to charge more, and that isn't always possible.  If the course is already charging the standard for the region, then all they do is price themselves out of the market.  That will definitely lighten the load, because players will go elsewhere.

2) Shouldn't need more than 2 rangers, one for each 9 (figuring the normal 18 hole facility).  My home course has one for the 18 hole course and one to patrol both the Executive 9 and the par 3 course, but the courses aren't strung out through a housing development.  They are laid out on a relatively rectangular plot of land.

3) That isn't always possible, nor is it necessarily feasible.  Take a mixed handicap group who are playing some particular game that requires all to play from the same tees.  Better just to tell them up front that if they choose that set of tees, they are still expected and required to adhere to the pace of play policy.  You can only impose so many restrictions on the players before they just stop showing up.

4) What do you consider a reasonable green speed?  My home course keeps them between 10 and 11, and that seems to be enough for the players who like fast greens, but not so fast that they eat up the weaker putters.  At least we get regular compliments on our greens, and usually from the better players.   I would agree with you that there is no need to try and get them running like Augusta National during the Masters.  That makes no sense to me at all.

[Spitfisher]

The original posters was looking for ideas, once a slow group has been identified a more direct, zero tolerance approach needs to take place.

insist the group play:

with a 2.5 foot gimmie rule.

with mark my ball once rule on the green.

allow for preferred lie everywhere.

without "honors". ready golf including the following tee shot.

Sounds has though some course changes have been done, rough has been cut etc. other suggestions  on known busy days, easy tee boxes and easy pins, throughout the course. If you have a restaurant  can signs be put up on the 8th or 9th tee  with a simple light menu and the bar/restaurant telephone number. The menu could also be displayed in the cart.

I  am always amazed clubs do not do this

So, refuse to allow golfers to play golf on the golf course......

You're right, that will speed up play, but only because there won't be many golfers frequenting that particular course!

So, refuse to allow golfers to play golf on the golf course...... where did this notion come from?

My point was if they are slow and holding people up behind them, they need to speed it up, no one is refusing their right to play, but there are ways of speeding things up including shortening up play, like marking balls, not finishing out, waiting on the next tee for honors- bottom line is a lot of the miscellaneous BS on the green adds to the over all round when you multiply by 18 holes. That 2nd, 3rd, 4th shot because of a lousy almost impossible lie adds to it. Playing form the wrong tees it all ads up.

a 4:15 hour round VS a 5 hour round is 3 minutes per hole faster per foursome

Those things do no more than make an insignificant difference in pace of play.  And they are nonsensical suggestions because you are assuming the the only cause of slow play is poor golfers, which is an uninformed and prejudicial opinion.  There are plenty of single digit players who suck at keeping pace.  Your suggestions will be useless for them.  You need a policy which is all encompassing, and what that means is that players need to be ready to play when it's time to play, and to then play promptly as soon as they do have the opportunity.

Pace rules for casual stroke play:

1) No waiting to determine who is away or who has the honor.  Play if you are ready.

2) No 5 minute searches for errant balls unless already waiting on the group in front.  Play a provisional ball when you see your shot heading astray.

3) No standing around picking your nose and scratching your butt when the way is clear in front of you.  Hit the ball!!

4) Get directly to your ball, get ready to play, then play, as long as that action doesn't interfere with another player in playing his stroke.

5) Know where you should be on the course at any given time.  If you are averaging more than 14 minutes per hole, then you are usually going to be off pace.  More than 15 minutes and you are definitely off pace.  15 minutes is easy to keep track of - that is 4 holes per hour.  If you can't track that then you need remedial help with math.  14 minute pace is 4 holes in 56 minutes - still pretty easy.  Be aware of it and keep track.

6) If something does cause you to fall behind, be the driving force in your group and push your companions to make a real effort to catch up.

All this means is get out on the course and just play golf.  It's not a coffee klatch or a beer bust.  It's not the time to put a wax job on your driver.  If you like to clean clubs after a shot, do so while traveling, or when waiting on your playing companions to play, not while the next group back is waiting on you.  Same thing is true if you have to put a ID mark on your ball.  In the heat of battle it doesn't need to be an artistic masterwork.

Mostly just be aware.  See what is happening around you and know when it's time to play.

Much of what you described is called "ready golf" the assumption is they already know about it and have continued to demonstrate slow play.

[wils5150]

1) Reducing the number of players depends on what the current tee time spread is.  My experience has shown that when you dip under 9 minutes, it starts causing problems.  If you reduce the number of players, there is no maybe about it, you would definitely have to charge more, and that isn't always possible.  If the course is already charging the standard for the region, then all they do is price themselves out of the market.  That will definitely lighten the load, because players will go elsewhere.

2) Shouldn't need more than 2 rangers, one for each 9 (figuring the normal 18 hole facility).  My home course has one for the 18 hole course and one to patrol both the Executive 9 and the par 3 course, but the courses aren't strung out through a housing development.  They are laid out on a relatively rectangular plot of land.

3) That isn't always possible, nor is it necessarily feasible.  Take a mixed handicap group who are playing some particular game that requires all to play from the same tees.  Better just to tell them up front that if they choose that set of tees, they are still expected and required to adhere to the pace of play policy.  You can only impose so many restrictions on the players before they just stop showing up.

4) What do you consider a reasonable green speed?  My home course keeps them between 10 and 11, and that seems to be enough for the players who like fast greens, but not so fast that they eat up the weaker putters.  At least we get regular compliments on our greens, and usually from the better players.   I would agree with you that there is no need to try and get them running like Augusta National during the Masters.  That makes no sense to me at all.

for # 1 I agree with you

2. that depends on property size.

3.  I guess you could make them play the tees that the highest handicap person would have to play.

4 cant really put a number on reasonable green speed. it depends on the golfers average skill level and slope of the greens.