Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[David in FL]

[LEFT][/LEFT][quote name="Gunther" url="/t/70984/should-divots-be-considered-ground-under-repair/450#post_1020333"] At what point is a pitch mark deemed nit to be repairable? Same scenario.[/quote] A pitch mark on the green is always repairable. Regardless, it's irrelevant. A divot is not repairable, and repairing a pitch mark on the green does not require that the ball be moved or that the lie be improved. Apples and oranges.

[saevel25]

A pitch mark on the green is always repairable.

Regardless, it's irrelevant. A divot is not repairable, and repairing a pitch mark on the green does not require that the ball be moved or that the lie be improved.

Apples and oranges.

Yep, because the rules of golf has specified the green as a different entity than the rest of the course.

[David in FL]

Further, why does this have to be the "snag" that keeps them from calling divot holes GUR?  Why can't it simply be "That's a stupid idea, and it's not golf?" I just don't buy that the application and definitions are really what the problem is.

The definition is only part of the issue. As has been said before, GUR by definition is an abnormal course condition. A divot is not an abnormal condition on the golf course, it's as much a part of the game as any other challenge we face.

[Gunther]

[LEFT][/LEFT] A pitch mark on the green is always repairable. Regardless, it's irrelevant. A divot is not repairable, and repairing a pitch mark on the green does not require that the ball be moved or that the lie be improved. Apples and oranges.

Yes, as the rules are written. I totally get that. I'm providing potential alternatives because I don't like the rule. My point relative to divots is exactly the same as a pitch mark. One could always get relief from a divot regardless of its state of repair, if one deemed it necessary. He would consult with a partner or official if unsure whether the imperfection was in fact, a divot, just like a pitch mark.

[David in FL]

Yes, as the rules are written. I totally get that. I'm providing potential alternatives because I don't like the rule. My point relative to divots is exactly the same as a pitch mark. One could always get relief from a divot regardless of its state of repair, if one deemed it necessary. He would consult with a partner or official if unsure whether the imperfection was in fact, a divot, just like a pitch mark.

No, you don't "get relief" from a ball mark. You're allowed to repair it, and doing so does not allow you to change the location of your ball, nor improve your lie. In other words, it maintains the core principles behind the rules, it doesn't violate them.

[saevel25]

Yes, as the rules are written. I totally get that.

I'm providing potential alternatives because I don't like the rule. My point relative to divots is exactly the same as a pitch mark. One could always get relief from a divot regardless of its state of repair, if one deemed it necessary. He would consult with a partner or official if unsure whether the imperfection was in fact, a divot, just like a pitch mark.

But you don't consult your opponent for a pitch mark. Also notice one of the key rules with this is that you are allowed to mark your ball on the green. Which then permits you to fix the ball mark.

Once the pitch marked is fix the ball must go back to the same spot. You can not fix a divot, so you can not move the ball from a divot. Different locations, different rules, different application. They do not match up at all.

[Golfingdad]

The definition is only part of the issue.

As has been said before, GUR by definition is an abnormal course condition. A divot is not an abnormal condition on the golf course, it's as much a part of the game as any other challenge we face.

But it's the only part of the issue I was getting involved in.  On the rest of it, I agree with you fully.

[Gunther]

But you don't consult your opponent for a pitch mark. Also notice one of the key rules with this is that you are allowed to mark your ball on the green. Which then permits you to fix the ball mark.  Once the pitch marked is fix the ball must go back to the same spot. You can not fix a divot, so you can not move the ball from a divot. Different locations, different rules, different application. They do not match up at all.

You do consult your partner on a pitch mark. I do it regularly to ensure I'm not about to inadvertently repair something other than a pitch mark. I see the pros do it as well, from time to time. I get the difference between relief and repair; again, just offering a potential option.

[saevel25]

You do consult your partner on a pitch mark. I do it regularly to ensure I'm not about to inadvertently repair something other than a pitch mark. I see the pros do it as well, from time to time.

I get the difference between relief and repair; again, just offering a potential option.

I have never consulted my partner on a pitch mark. I have never been consulted by someone about a pitch mark, and I have never seen a PGA tour player consult anyone on fixing a pitch mark.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunther

You do consult your partner on a pitch mark. I do it regularly to ensure I'm not about to inadvertently repair something other than a pitch mark. I see the pros do it as well, from time to time.

I get the difference between relief and repair; again, just offering a potential option.

I have never consulted my partner on a pitch mark. I have never been consulted by someone about a pitch mark, and I have never seen a PGA tour player consult anyone on fixing a pitch mark.

I have - quite a few times in fact.

[David in FL]

I have never consulted my partner on a pitch mark. I have never been consulted by someone about a pitch mark, and I have never seen a PGA tour player consult anyone on fixing a pitch mark.

Have to admit, it's fairly common. But again, complete apples and oranges to the divot question.

[saevel25]

Have to admit, it's fairly common.

But again, complete apples and oranges to the divot question.

I guess it must be more of a tournament thing to ask your opponent when fixing a pitch mark.

[David in FL]

I guess it must be more of a tournament thing to ask your opponent when fixing a pitch mark.

. Absolutely. In a friendly, casual match there's no problem. In a tournament, when in doubt ask, to avoid any question that could result in a penalty.

[colin007]

Question- how is a sand/seed filled divot hole not considered ground under repair? Is not the purpose of the mixture to repair?

[David in FL]

Question- how is a sand/seed filled divot hole not considered ground under repair? Is not the purpose of the mixture to repair?

A divot is always in the process of growing back in.....the sand just speeds the process along.

GUR, by definition, is an abnormal course condition.  The presence of divots has been deemed to be a "normal" part of any golf course.

[colin007]

So the actual wording of "ground under repair" doesn't really explain the term as defined by the rules?

[saevel25]

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin007

So the actual wording of "ground under repair" doesn't really explain the term as defined by the rules?

Ground under repair is an area designated by the course as abnormal ground conditions. Not all abnormal ground conditions are ground under repair, such as casual water or a hole created by a burrowing create (GOPHER!!)

Quote:

Ground Under Repair

“ Ground under repair ” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair are part of the ground under repair . Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked. Grass cuttings and other material left on the course that have been abandoned and are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless so marked.

When the margin of ground under repair is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the ground under repair , and the margin of the ground under repair is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate ground under repair , the stakes identify the ground under repair and the lines define the margin of the ground under repair . When the margin of ground under repair is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the ground under repair . The margin of ground under repair extends vertically downwards but not upwards.

A ball is in ground under repair when it lies in or any part of it touches the ground under repair .

Stakes used to define the margin of or identify ground under repair are obstructions .

[David in FL]

So the actual wording of "ground under repair" doesn't really explain the term as defined by the rules?

Good question, and it helps demonstrate how important it is to understand the actual definitions in applying the rules, because there may be differences from what you and I might consider common usage.

In this case, the term isn't necessarily all-inclusive, nor does it mean that anything in the process of being repaired, or repairing itself necessarily meets the definition.  By definition, GUR must be declared and marked as such by the committee (outside of tournament play, by the course).....

Ground Under Repair

“ Ground under repair ” is any part of the course so marked by order of the Committee or so declared by its authorized representative. All ground and any grass, bush, tree or other growing thing within the ground under repair are part of the ground under repair . Ground under repair includes material piled for removal and a hole made by a greenkeeper, even if not so marked. Grass cuttings and other material left on the course that have been abandoned and are not intended to be removed are not ground under repair unless so marked.

When the margin of ground under repair is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the ground under repair , and the margin of the ground under repair is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate ground under repair , the stakes identify the ground under repair and the lines define the margin of the ground under repair . When the margin of ground under repair is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the ground under repair . The margin of ground under repair extends vertically downwards but not upwards.

A ball is in ground under repair when it lies in or any part of it touches the ground under repair .

Stakes used to define the margin of or identify ground under repair are obstructions .

edited to add that Matt beat me.  Damn,  I'm getting slow in my old age!