Should Divots Be Considered Ground Under Repair?

[Rulesman]

How is a divot hole 'under repair' ? It's just a hole in the ground and unless they have a big labour budget, will never get repaired. It will just grow out.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenn

How is a divot hole 'under repair' ? It's just a hole in the ground and unless they have a big labour budget, will never get repaired. It will just grow out.

He said 'sand-filled' divots and the idea of those is to speed up the repair of the divot, therefore it is actually 'under repair' as such.

In answer to the original question though divots are part of the 'luck' part of the game so I don't think they should be GUR. Not to mention the fact that if every sand-filled divot was GUR there's be more time spent picking up and going to the drop zone than playing golf. ;)

[birlyshirly]

Funny how so many posters get so heated and moralistic and spirit-of-the-game-ish . The current rule is the current rule, but it's pretty arbitrary IMO. I don't recall any great hoo-ha in the years when you could legally move your ball from a divot.

If there's a justification for the current rule, it's probably to save wear and tear on the course.

[Kenn]

And he was answered.  Correctly ( and according to the rules because we are in the Rules Forum).  Logically (divots are a natural part of the game, and have been since the first one was created some 400 years ago).  Then you decided to add your two cents worth.... and it doesn't even have that much value.

You are entitled to your opinion, and we are entitled to show you how wrong you are.

If the question were "do the rules allow for relief from divots" you would be right.  Since the question was "should they be" there is nothing wrong with my opinion and I gave some reasons why.  No one bothered to address any of them, probably because they made too much sense.  Your opinion is that since the rules state otherwise and the game was created 400 yrs ago that I must be wrong.  I'm glad you decided to add your two cents worth but since you can't seem to address any of the reasons why I can see why they could be, it doesn't have that much value.

[Kenn]

How is a divot hole 'under repair' ? It's just a hole in the ground and unless they have a big labour budget, will never get repaired. It will just grow out.

I don't know about you but I always "repair" my divots.  I simply believe that since someone ahead of me did not, I should not have to suffer the consequences.  Even if the course did have a big labor budget, why would they be fixing divots if they are part of the game?

[Kenn]

When was the last time a pro in a tournament was sitting in the middle of the fairway in the bottom of a divot?  It doesn't happen because they don't belong there and are always meticulously "repaired".  Well, since most courses do not have someone meticulously repairing divots does not mean that my lie should suck when I hit a perfect shot and deserve a respectable lie.  It is that simple and because the rules may say otherwise doesn't address that point.

[Kenn]

Miss the point much?? You play the ball down and you play the course as you found it, divots and all.

And the next time you hit a perfect shot and find yourself 2 feet from the cup and there is a nasty ballmark right between you and the cup make sure you play the course as you found it.

[Ernest Jones]

When was the last time a pro in a tournament was sitting in the middle of the fairway in the bottom of a divot?  It doesn't happen because they don't belong there and are always meticulously "repaired".  Well, since most courses do not have someone meticulously repairing divots does not mean that my lie should suck when I hit a perfect shot and deserve a respectable lie.  It is that simple and because the rules may say otherwise doesn't address that point.

Not all that often but it does happen. PGA tournaments are four days long. Usually by the end of the first round the landing areas are literally littered with divots. Divots made on Thursday are unlikely to be healed before the end of the tournament even with sand and seed mix. It helps that the tee boxes are moved around a bit but it still happens.

[Ernest Jones]

And the next time you hit a perfect shot and find yourself 2 feet from the cup and there is a nasty ballmark right between you and the cup make sure you play the course as you found it.

Why the hell would I do that when the rules clearly allow me to repair it? I'm not advocating self flagellation here, I use the rules to my advantage as much as I can but I do use the rules.

[David in FL]

If the question were "do the rules allow for relief from divots" you would be right.  Since the question was "should they be" there is nothing wrong with my opinion and I gave some reasons why.  No one bothered to address any of them, probably because they made too much sense.  Your opinion is that since the rules state otherwise and the game was created 400 yrs ago that I must be wrong.  I'm glad you decided to add your two cents worth but since you can't seem to address any of the reasons why I can see why they could be, it doesn't have that much value.

Did you read any of the previous 50 posts in this thread before you jumped in with both feet?  Your "points" have been addressed in one form or another early on.  We're just tired of repeating ourselves time and again for people incapable, or too lazy to read what has already been discussed.

I don't know about you but I always "repair" my divots.  I simply believe that since someone ahead of me did not, I should not have to suffer the consequences.  Even if the course did have a big labor budget, why would they be fixing divots if they are part of the game?

Now you're just being silly.  No one ever said that it's preferable to have divots, just that they exist and are an integral part of the course, and the game.

When was the last time a pro in a tournament was sitting in the middle of the fairway in the bottom of a divot?  It doesn't happen because they don't belong there and are always meticulously "repaired".  Well, since most courses do not have someone meticulously repairing divots does not mean that my lie should suck when I hit a perfect shot and deserve a respectable lie.  It is that simple and because the rules may say otherwise doesn't address that point.

Happens ALL the time.  Look at the landing areas on most holes.  These guys tend to hit a LOT of balls in the same general area and as a result they're often in divots, sanded or not.

And the next time you hit a perfect shot and find yourself 2 feet from the cup and there is a nasty ballmark right between you and the cup make sure you play the course as you found it.

The rules specifically allow you to repair a ball mark on the green.

I am curious though.  You mentioned bare spots in another post.  Is it you opinion that any lie other than an absolute pristine, perfectly flat lie should be eligible for relief, since "that's what you deserve in the fairway"?  Or are you only concerned about divots?

[MS256]

And the next time you hit a perfect shot and find yourself 2 feet from the cup and there is a nasty ballmark right between you and the cup make sure you play the course as you found it.

That isn't even relevant to the divot discussion. The rules allow you to fix a ball mark. They don't allow you to take relief from a divot.

It's fine to discuss whether you think they should change that rule or not. Who knows, maybe they will at some point (but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on that). Until then the rules are the rules and you (or anybody else) can play by the rules and have legitimate scores or not play by the rules and not have legitimate scores. As long as you (or anybody else) are not playing by different rules than whoever you are competing against (and that includes keeping a handicap for future events) it doesn't matter at all to me.

[bkuehn1952]

The problem with treating divot holes as GUR is that the declaration of an unrepaired divot hole is very subjective.  Suddenly almost any imperfection in a fairway could be declared "an almost but not quite healed divot hole."  At that point we are all rolling or dropping our balls into a better lie.

Yes, an unrepaired divot hole is not supposed to be there.  Neither are foot prints in bunkers, spike & scuff marks on the green, unlevel teeing grounds, poorly mown or missed areas of the fairway, deer hoof prints on greens, dead or dying turf, etc...  No golfer should ever arrive at the course with the expectation that the conditions will be exactly as designed.  Sometimes the ground will be a bit damp and the ball will have some dirt adhering to it.  A branch will have inconveniently fallen in a spot where removing it would cause the ball to move.

I fully understand why you think unrepaired and poorly repaired divot holes should be GUR.  I just don't think there is an effective way to create a rule that doesn't lead to playing preferred lies much of the time.  Also, so much of golf is figuring out how to deal with the cards that one is dealt, including lies in divot holes.  Once we start trying to legislate out perceived unfair situations like divot holes, we will lose much of what makes the game so interesting and challenging.

p.s.  I thought about divot holes a bit and my year of golf to this point.  I have played a bit over 100 rounds.  That is about 1,800 opportunities to hit into unrepaired divot holes.  If we are going to confine the discussion to divot holes in the fairway, that drops the number to maybe 900-1,000.  From my recollection, I had about 3 shots from unrepaired divot holes.  I just don't think it happens often enough to warrant a Rule change.  I play mid to low end municipal and public tracks so we are not talking about swanky private or resort courses. Perhaps there is more of a problem where divot holes are sanded rather than filled with the divot, like we do in SE Michigan.  I can only speak to my experience.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenn

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

He said 'sand-filled' divots and the idea of those is to speed up the repair of the divot, therefore it is actually 'under repair' as such.

Thank you.

Quote:

In answer to the original question though divots are part of the 'luck' part of the game so I don't think they should be GUR. Not to mention the fact that if every sand-filled divot was GUR there's be more time spent picking up and going to the drop zone than playing golf. ;)

Yes they are part of the luck of the game and if I beat my buddy by 1 stroke I would prefer it not be due to luck.

I would prefer not to hit a tee shot down the middle of the fairway to arrive at where it landed and it's nowhere in sight.
I would prefer not to stroke a put only to have a leaf blow onto my putt line and send the putt off line.
I would prefer my ball never to land in a divot at all.

There are many luck-related things I'd prefer not to happen during a round of golf but they do.

[birlyshirly]

I would prefer not to hit a tee shot down the middle of the fairway to arrive at where it landed and it's nowhere in sight.

I would prefer not to stroke a put only to have a leaf blow onto my putt line and send the putt off line.

I would prefer my ball never to land in a divot at all.

There are many luck-related things I'd prefer not to happen during a round of golf but they do.

I think the discussion about divots arises because, although it's your bad luck to roll into one, it still grates that the situation wouldn't have arisen if each player properly replaced/repaired their own divots as described in the etiquette section of the rules. Bad bounces, difficult lies and other acts of nature don't have any other player's poor behaviour as their root cause - so I at least understand why a player's reaction might be different in the case of divots.

So long as the question is what relief the rules ought to provide - I don't see a massive distinction between repairing a ballmark on the green and moving your ball out of a divot.

[wils5150]

Why the hell would I do that when the rules clearly allow me to repair it? I'm not advocating self flagellation here, I use the rules to my advantage as much as I can but I do use the rules.

Rub of the green! Like Ernest said the rules are made to help you not hurt you.

[newtogolf]

Funny how so many posters get so heated and moralistic and spirit-of-the-game-ish. The current rule is the current rule, but it's pretty arbitrary IMO. I don't recall any great hoo-ha in the years when you could legally move your ball from a divot.

If there's a justification for the current rule, it's probably to save wear and tear on the course.

When was it ever legal to move your ball from a divot according to the Rules of Golf?  I must have missed those years.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

I would prefer not to hit a tee shot down the middle of the fairway to arrive at where it landed and it's nowhere in sight.

I would prefer not to stroke a put only to have a leaf blow onto my putt line and send the putt off line.

I would prefer my ball never to land in a divot at all.

There are many luck-related things I'd prefer not to happen during a round of golf but they do.

I think the discussion about divots arises because, although it's your bad luck to roll into one, it still grates that the situation wouldn't have arisen if each player properly replaced/repaired their own divots as described in the etiquette section of the rules. Bad bounces, difficult lies and other acts of nature don't have any other player's poor behaviour as their root cause - so I at least understand why a player's reaction might be different in the case of divots.

So long as the question is what relief the rules ought to provide - I don't see a massive distinction between repairing a ballmark on the green and moving your ball out of a divot.

But then only "excessive" divots can be replaced properly. If a player takes a sliver of a divot there's nothing to replace but there's still a hole and a horrible lie to play off.

(playing devil's advocate by the way as I agree that many divots can be avoided by replacing the turf the player hacked up)

[birlyshirly]

Quote:

Originally Posted by birlyshirly

Funny how so many posters get so heated and moralistic and spirit-of-the-game-ish. The current rule is the current rule, but it's pretty arbitrary IMO. I don't recall any great hoo-ha in the years when you could legally move your ball from a divot.

If there's a justification for the current rule, it's probably to save wear and tear on the course.

When was it ever legal to move your ball from a divot according to the Rules of Golf?  I must have missed those years.

Maybe you did newtogolf . The Rules changed w/e Jan 2010.

But then only "excessive" divots can be replaced properly. If a player takes a sliver of a divot there's nothing to replace but there's still a hole and a horrible lie to play off.

(playing devil's advocate by the way as I agree that many divots can be avoided by replacing the turf the player hacked up)

Whew! What's a correct vers an excessive divot? Not going there! I take your point though. Lots of courses had a local rule specifically, but only, for seeded divots to take away some of the ambiguity.