Rules Issue, Ethics Issue, or Neither??

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

The player accepted, did he not? And you sat silently by, did you not? As did the other player who then also helped?

All four of you violated the rules. You least of all, but ignorance you also allowed others in the field to finish lower than they deserved to finish. Who should have finished second but now finished third, fourth, or fifth instead? It's not just about who won or should have won…

Shame.

Unfortunately, you don't get to make that decision on behalf of the rest of the field.

Yeah, you're wrong about all of that.  And the other competitors have a beef with you. What if A had made his putt and won the season stroke average comp by a shot? What if someone else not in your group shot 77? You can look at all this stuff after the fact, but you didn't have that knowledge at the time. You're justifying allowing friends and competitors to break the rules, and consoling yourself by saying "it didn't really matter."

Well heck, I'll just tee off two inches outside of the cup. I'll pick up one-inch putts, because really, nobody misses those. So that doesn't matter either, right? Why not?

That's not advice. Playing out of order is the issue here.

Another player is not obligated to play out of turn, and if you ask someone to do so in order to benefit you, you can still be DQed.

Enough with the "advice" stuff. Absolutely none of this is "advice." Hitting a golf shot is never "advice."

Advice

“Advice’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.

Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on theputting green, is not advice.

I guess that settles it then.

I'm an *******.

Sorry guys.

The best advice here is when something doesn't sound right to you speak up before they act if it's at all possible.  It isn't always possible to be the "nice guy" is still keep everthing right by the rules.

[Golfingdad]

Let me put it another way, though, in favor of knowing the rules: You could have also been the guy that SAVED them from getting DQed. Then you'd forever be THAT guy, which is a GOOD thing. No?

Absolutely!  That is who I'll be from now on.  I've learned from this, and that's the whole point, right?  I know one more rule than I did before, and I also know that if I'm in doubt, I'll speak up right away.

If I said, "hang on guys, I don't think you can do that." then they didn't, and we went inside and found out I saved all of them from DQ and, quite possibly, helped B finish T2 instead of solo 3 (because he would have got the line fairly from A), then I'd feel really good about this whole thing.

I want to be that guy next time.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Let me put it another way, though, in favor of knowing the rules: You could have also been the guy that SAVED them from getting DQed. Then you'd forever be THAT guy, which is a GOOD thing. No?

Absolutely!  That is who I'll be from now on.  I've learned from this, and that's the whole point, right?  I know one more rule than I did before, and I also know that if I'm in doubt, I'll speak up right away.

If I said, "hang on guys, I don't think you can do that." then they didn't, and we went inside and found out I saved all of them from DQ and, quite possibly, helped B finish T2 instead of solo 3 (because he would have got the line fairly from A), then I'd feel really good about this whole thing.

I want to be that guy next time.

That is how the game is supposed to be played.

[dsc123]

The new decision 10-1c/3 says this would be ok to play out of turn if the sole purpose is to speed up play.  I know that's not what happened here, but good to keep in mind in the future.

[luu5]

The new decision 10-1c/3 says this would be ok to play out of turn if the sole purpose is to speed up play.  I know that's not what happened here, but good to keep in mind in the future.

OP situation was stroke play event. The newly numbered 10-1c/3 applies only to match play.

In stroke play when you are on the green and required to mark your ball, you can always putt instead of marking. I.e. you can play out of turn if the sole purpose is to speed up. Nothing has changed.

[Golfingdad]

In stroke play when you are on the green and required to mark your ball, you can always putt instead of marking. I.e. you can play out of turn if the sole purpose is to speed up. Nothing has changed.

So now the more I think about it, and after reading these last two comments, I'm thinking that Player C was committing an infraction no matter what his words were.  The only thing that gave me pause at the time was the "...to give you the line" portion of the question.  There have been lots of times when playing with friends where one buddy is having a rough hole and he's getting frustrated and you want to give him a chance to calm down, so you say something like "take your time, I'll go" after he hit a poor putt.  But even though this isn't blatant, because you're not necessarily on the guys line or anything (nor did you point it out), you are potentially giving him an advantage by allowing him to "take his time" or "take a deep breath" or whatever.

Is it safe to say that C was wrong in asking A if he wanted him to go, no matter what his words were?  On the other hand, is it safe to also say that had C just put his ball down and proceeded without any words it would have been acceptable (especially if C started that routine before A even got up to his ball)?

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Just to nitpick the decision that dsc and luu cited a bit ... what about this scenario:  Two guys are almost equidistant from the hole and only about a foot apart.  Both guys are right handed, and the ball that is to the left (as you're looking at the hole) is about 6" closer to the hole than the other ball.  Meaning, the guy who's away would have his left foot directly on or in front of the other guys ball mark.  Is this an exception where it would be acceptable to play out of turn?  (Even though it would not have anything to do with speeding up play)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by luu5

In stroke play when you are on the green and required to mark your ball, you can always putt instead of marking. I.e. you can play out of turn if the sole purpose is to speed up. Nothing has changed.

So now the more I think about it, and after reading these last two comments, I'm thinking that Player C was committing an infraction no matter what his words were.  The only thing that gave me pause at the time was the "...to give you the line" portion of the question.  There have been lots of times when playing with friends where one buddy is having a rough hole and he's getting frustrated and you want to give him a chance to calm down, so you say something like "take your time, I'll go" after he hit a poor putt.  But even though this isn't blatant, because you're not necessarily on the guys line or anything (nor did you point it out), you are potentially giving him an advantage by allowing him to "take his time" or "take a deep breath" or whatever.

Is it safe to say that C was wrong in asking A if he wanted him to go, no matter what his words were?  On the other hand, is it safe to also say that had C just put his ball down and proceeded without any words it would have been acceptable (especially if C started that routine before A even got up to his ball)?

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For your question in bold, "C" would still have been in breach of Rule 10-2b, but since there was on other extenuating condition, there is no penalty attached to his action.

Quote:

Just to nitpick the decision that dsc and luu cited a bit ... what about this scenario:  Two guys are almost equidistant from the hole and only about a foot apart.  Both guys are right handed, and the ball that is to the left (as you're looking at the hole) is about 6" closer to the hole than the other ball.  Meaning, the guy who's away would have his left foot directly on or in front of the other guys ball mark.  Is this an exception where it would be acceptable to play out of turn?  (Even though it would not have anything to do with speeding up play)

In such a situation, If I was away, I'd ask my FC if he wanted to play first so that I wouldn't be standing on his line.  Then it's his choice.  He still has the right to the line of putt which his previous stroke left him, so in this case he would be allowed to repair any cleat damage that I might leave on his line.  The decision might depend on how much he could learn about the line from my putt.

[Golfingdad]

so in this case he would be allowed to repair any cleat damage that I might leave on his line.

Fascinating.  I was not aware of this.  Thanks for all the info!!

[Rulesman]

Fascinating.  I was not aware of this.  Thanks for all the info!!

16-1a/13

Line of Putt Damaged Accidentally by Opponent, Fellow-Competitor or Their Caddies

Q. An opponent, fellow-competitor or one of their caddies accidentally steps on and damages the player's line of putt. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. Rule 1-2 is not applicable as the physical conditions were not altered with the intent of affecting the playing of the hole.

In equity (Rule 1-4 ), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition. The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

If it is not possible to restore the line of putt, the player would be justified in requesting the Committee to grant relief. If the damage is severe enough, the Committee may declare the area to be ground under repair, in which case the competitor may take relief under Rule 25-1b(iii) . (Revised)

Related Decisions: See "Equity: player entitled to lie, line of play and stance when ball comes to rest after stroke" in the Index.

[wadesworld]

Quote:

In equity (Rule 1-4 ), the player may have the line of putt restored to its original condition. The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

This seems to indicate that anyone, including the player, may repair damage done by anyone in the current group, if the ball is already on the green.  For example, your fellow competitor drags his feet and creates spike marks on your line. Or drops his putter creating an indentation.  This reads as if you or he may repair it,  since the condition did not exist when the ball came to rest.

However, that would seem to directly contradict 16-1a. Additionally, 16-1c would seem to prevent such a repair, unless it is only referring to damage that existed when the group arrived.

So am I correct in saying:

1)  Rule 1-4 overrides 16-1a if the damage was caused by the group on the green

2)  16-1c is only applicable for pre-existing damage, because again, 1-4 would permit a repair if the damage is done by this group.

It appears the answer is, "Uh yes - you're just restating what the decision says."  But I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.

[luu5]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

So am I correct in saying:

1)  Rule 1-4 overrides 16-1a if the damage was caused by the group on the green

2)  16-1c is only applicable for pre-existing damage, because again, 1-4 would permit a repair if the damage is done by this group.

It appears the answer is, "Uh yes - you're just restating what the decision says."  But I want to be sure I'm not misunderstanding.

You are correct. I am not sure if it can be said any clearer it has been already said:

Quote:

The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by luu5

You are correct. I am not sure if it can be said any clearer it has been already said:

Quote:

The player is entitled to the lie and line of putt he had when his ball came to rest. The line of putt may be restored by anyone.

This statement is just an extension of the Principle that you play the course as you find it.  When the ball came to rest, the player had the course in a certain condition (i.e. we assume that he had a pristine line of putt), and he is entitled to still have that condition when he makes his next stroke, unless he is the heavy footed clod who caused the damage.

[tqcishark]

how do you hit a 12 foot putt 6 feet past the hole and break 80 ;-)