Dispute on where ball is lost.

[Asheville]

He was 0 for 7 .... it's now up to 0 for 11.

[phan52]

Good Day,

I was playing a competitive round with three friends and following is the ruling given to me which I disagree with.

There is water on the right off the tee shot to about 200 yards and then a landing area part fairway & rough with water further to the right, about 30 yards or so.

In other words the fairway is narrow up to 200 yards from the tee then it widens out 30 yards more and then it narrows again about 40 yards further towards the green.

I hit a solid push fade of, by my estimate, 225 yards over the first bit of the lake and saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash. We did not find my ball and my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake. I am positive that I carried the first part of the lake & knowing that you take your penalty drop from where the ball last crossed the margin of the hazard, that is where I wanted to drop.

My fellow competitors did not agree and wanted me to go way back and take my penalty drop much further from the hole (which I did and made bogey).

I know I can play two balls, but this was an informal game and there was no rules committee.

In this circumstance what would you advise?

I hope my description of the issue has been clear.

Thanks for your comments / advice.

If you don't know where a golf ball went, it is a lost ball. I agree that your ball most probably went into the hazard and would be considered under the rules of a lateral hazard, and it is reasonable for you to make that determination. But the problem is that you would not know where to drop the ball as you didn't see where it crossed the line of the hazard. You definitely saw it land on the other side of the water so the last thing you should have done was what your playing partners advised because that was not one of your options. You probably should have gone back and re-teed under the rules of a lost ball. JMO.

[Fourputt]

If you don't know where a golf ball went, it is a lost ball. I agree that your ball most probably went into the hazard and would be considered under the rules of a lateral hazard, and it is reasonable for you to make that determination. But the problem is that you would not know where to drop the ball as you didn't see where it crossed the line of the hazard. You definitely saw it land on the other side of the water so the last thing you should have done was what your playing partners advised because that was not one of your options. You probably should have gone back and re-teed under the rules of a lost ball. JMO.

This would only apply if there was a possibility for the ball to be lost outside of the hazard.  If there is no place where the ball could be lost except in the hazard, then why would you penalize yourself more severely than the rules require?  According to the OP, it isn't a question of whether or not the ball is in the hazard, only a question of which part of the margin the ball last crossed.

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

If you don't know where a golf ball went, it is a lost ball. I agree that your ball most probably went into the hazard and would be considered under the rules of a lateral hazard, and it is reasonable for you to make that determination. But the problem is that you would not know where to drop the ball as you didn't see where it crossed the line of the hazard. You definitely saw it land on the other side of the water so the last thing you should have done was what your playing partners advised because that was not one of your options. You probably should have gone back and re-teed under the rules of a lost ball. JMO.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This would only apply if there was a possibility for the ball to be lost outside of the hazard.  If there is no place where the ball could be lost except in the hazard, then why would you penalize yourself more severely than the rules require?  According to the OP, it isn't a question of whether or not the ball is in the hazard, only a question of which part of the margin the ball last crossed.

Because he says two things, and I quote:

I saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash... so he has no idea where the ball went. That is the definition of a lost ball.

and...

my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake... that is a fair determination but even if the ball, in his opinion, went into the lake, he has no idea where. So, where does he drop the ball? Plus, he can't get any help from his playing partners because they didn't even think the ball hit land on the other side.

Like I said...JMO.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

If you don't know where a golf ball went, it is a lost ball. I agree that your ball most probably went into the hazard and would be considered under the rules of a lateral hazard, and it is reasonable for you to make that determination. But the problem is that you would not know where to drop the ball as you didn't see where it crossed the line of the hazard. You definitely saw it land on the other side of the water so the last thing you should have done was what your playing partners advised because that was not one of your options. You probably should have gone back and re-teed under the rules of a lost ball. JMO.

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This would only apply if there was a possibility for the ball to be lost outside of the hazard.  If there is no place where the ball could be lost except in the hazard, then why would you penalize yourself more severely than the rules require?  According to the OP, it isn't a question of whether or not the ball is in the hazard, only a question of which part of the margin the ball last crossed.

Because he says two things, and I quote:

I saw the ball landing but did not see it bounce or splash...so he has no idea where the ball went. That is the definition of a lost ball.

and...

my opinion is that the ball must have bounced right or forward and entered the lake...that is a fair determination but even if the ball, in his opinion, went into the lake, he has no idea where. So, where does he drop the ball? Plus, he can't get any help from his playing partners because they didn't even think the ball hit land on the other side.

Like I said...JMO.

Rule 26 allows the player to make his best estimate as to where the ball crossed into the hazard.  The rule accepts that this will often happen at a considerable distance from the player, and thus exact precision is not always going to be possible.  If the ball was seen to bounce (the player states this), and if there is no place in that locale where the ball might be lost outside of the hazard, then you have satisfied the requirement for virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, and you are allowed some leeway in determining the spot where it crossed the margin.  You are not automatically required to accept stroke and distance just because the exact spot is not known.

[phan52]

Rule 26 allows the player to make his best estimate as to where the ball crossed into the hazard.  The rule accepts that this will often happen at a considerable distance from the player, and thus exact precision is not always going to be possible.  If the ball was seen to bounce (the player states this), and if there is no place in that locale where the ball might be lost outside of the hazard, then you have satisfied the requirement for virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, and you are allowed some leeway in determining the spot where it crossed the margin.  You are not automatically required to accept stroke and distance just because the exact spot is not known.

Without knowing things like topography, height of the rough around the hazard, possible proximity of trees or brush, I am not just going to assume "virtual certainty". With what I know of the circumstances, the guy lost his ball. I also believe that the last thing he should have done was what his playing partmers impelled him to do, as he saw his ball land on the other side of the hazard from where they made him take the drop. There was certainty on his part that the area where he dropped was nowhere near where it could have last crossed the hazard line.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Rule 26 allows the player to make his best estimate as to where the ball crossed into the hazard.  The rule accepts that this will often happen at a considerable distance from the player, and thus exact precision is not always going to be possible.  If the ball was seen to bounce (the player states this), and if there is no place in that locale where the ball might be lost outside of the hazard, then you have satisfied the requirement for virtual certainty that the ball is in the hazard, and you are allowed some leeway in determining the spot where it crossed the margin.  You are not automatically required to accept stroke and distance just because the exact spot is not known.

Without knowing things like topography, height of the rough around the hazard, possible proximity of trees or brush, I am not just going to assume "virtual certainty". With what I know of the circumstances, the guy lost his ball. I also believe that the last thing he should have done was what his playing partmers impelled him to do, as he saw his ball land on the other side of the hazard from where they made him take the drop. There was certainty on his part that the area where he dropped was nowhere near where it could have last crossed the hazard line.

At the same time, you are making assumptions too.  You are assuming that there is the possibility that the ball may be lost outside of the water hazard.  Neither of us has enough information to make a proper ruling on this.  I'm giving the player the benefit of the doubt until such further information is provided, while you aren't willing to do so.  Neither of us is right or wrong because we can't possibly know until the OP returns and tells us what the terrain was like - we  are both lacking the facts needed to support our positions.

[phan52]

Quote:

Originally Posted by phan52

Without knowing things like topography, height of the rough around the hazard, possible proximity of trees or brush, I am not just going to assume "virtual certainty". With what I know of the circumstances, the guy lost his ball. I also believe that the last thing he should have done was what his playing partmers impelled him to do, as he saw his ball land on the other side of the hazard from where they made him take the drop. There was certainty on his part that the area where he dropped was nowhere near where it could have last crossed the hazard

line.Originally Posted by Fourputt

At the same time, you are making assumptions too.  You are assuming that there is the possibility that the ball may be lost outside of the water hazard.  Neither of us has enough information to make a proper ruling on this.  I'm giving the player the benefit of the doubt until such further information is provided, while you aren't willing to do so.  Neither of us is right or wrong because we can't possibly know until the OP returns and tells us what the terrain was like - we  are both lacking the facts needed to support our positions.

I understand that. I am just positing an opinion on what I know.

I am sure that you would agree that, at the very least, he should have resisted doing what his playing partners suggested, as he says with certainty that he saw the ball hit land on the other side of the hazard.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

At the same time, you are making assumptions too.  You are assuming that there is the possibility that the ball may be lost outside of the water hazard.  Neither of us has enough information to make a proper ruling on this.  I'm giving the player the benefit of the doubt until such further information is provided, while you aren't willing to do so.  Neither of us is right or wrong because we can't possibly know until the OP returns and tells us what the terrain was like - we  are both lacking the facts needed to support our positions.

I understand that. I am just positing an opinion on what I know.

I am sure that you would agree that, at the very least, he should have resisted doing what his playing partners suggested, as he says with certainty that he saw the ball hit land on the other side of the hazard.

Yes.  Who knows what their motivation was.  He might have been kicking their butts on the daily wager.  Unless he was uncertain of where the ball landed, he should go with what he saw, and if it was a competition, consider invoking rule 3-3 and play a second ball under stroke and distance for self protection in case the committee doesn't agree with him.

[Kenn]

So, you don't think that dropping out of a divot is a breach?  Or rolling the ball from a bad lie?  That's what you were railing against in the other thread.  And in the process insinuating that those of us who did weren't using your good sense.  That sort of attitude won't make a lot of friends, especially when you then try to deny it.

No, I don't think relief from someone else's divot SHOULD be a breach. I never claimed the rules said you can.  Rolling the ball from a bad lie?

[tqcishark]

this really is a good thread, who here has not had similar circumstances.  I probably see something like this every other round...the term "virtually certain" is repeated through the rules.  imho this is the lynch pin of most disputes.  by my simple thinking, a competitive round stays friendly if the player whose ball is in question simply defers to consensus of the foursome.  or if only one other golfer saw the ball, then I will simply ask for ruling, so there is no unresolved question about my score.

[metrybill]

Play two provisional balls, one from the tee and another from where you think your ball should or could be dropped, allowed under the USGA rules. Let the Pro or the GOLF & Greens Committee or Handicap Committee decide. We have a Gang group and we almost always defer to the player's 4-some b/c we have a low net bet - protect the field.  Every round should have a low net bet, however small or great.

Provisional balls are a PIA (pain in the arse, Geoff Chaucer I think) but they are worth it. When in doubt take a provisional, it's a legal practice shot if the ball is found.  Why not?  But you must declare properly; a provisional for a lost ball is not allowed for an unplayable, etc. It is conceivable, and correct me if I am wrong, that two provisionals could be played - one for OB and another for unplayable.

The latter brings up another interesting question: What if you would rather play an unplayable from where the 1st ball finished rather than the provisional tee shot? FourPutt - jump in.

OK, I am not a rules guru, so cut me some slack, please.

[Golfingdad]

Play two provisional balls, one from the tee and another from where you think your ball should or could be dropped, allowed under the USGA rules. Let the Pro or the GOLF & Greens Committee or Handicap Committee decide. We have a Gang group and we almost always defer to the player's 4-some b/c we have a low net bet - protect the field.  Every round should have a low net bet, however small or great.

Provisional balls are a PIA (pain in the arse, Geoff Chaucer I think) but they are worth it. When in doubt take a provisional, it's a legal practice shot if the ball is found.  Why not?  But you must declare properly; a provisional for a lost ball is not allowed for an unplayable, etc. It is conceivable, and correct me if I am wrong, that two provisionals could be played - one for OB and another for unplayable.

The latter brings up another interesting question: What if you would rather play an unplayable from where the 1st ball finished rather than the provisional tee shot? FourPutt - jump in.

OK, I am not a rules guru, so cut me some slack, please.

The thing is, though, that the OP sort of mis-titled the thread.  It should be, I believe, "dispute on where the ball entered the hazard."  It wasn't "lost."  It was his word vs. playing competitors words as to where it last crossed into the hazard.  He could invoke Rule 3-3, but it wouldn't help here because it's not a dispute as to how to correctly apply the rule, it's a judgment call on where they think it went into the hazard.  Simply he said, she said, and nothing more.  Nobody on the committee saw it so they aren't going to be able to solve the dispute.

[metrybill]

Conundrum, right?

a question or  a problem having only a conjectural answer, or

an intricate and difficult problem.

Solution: play 2 balls and let the Pro decide.

[luu5]

Play two provisional balls, one from the tee and another from where you think your ball should or could be dropped, allowed under the USGA rules. Let the Pro or the GOLF & Greens Committee or Handicap Committee decide. We have a Gang group and we almost always defer to the player's 4-some b/c we have a low net bet - protect the field.  Every round should have a low net bet, however small or great.

Provisional balls are a PIA (pain in the arse, Geoff Chaucer I think) but they are worth it. When in doubt take a provisional, it's a legal practice shot if the ball is found.  Why not?  But you must declare properly; a provisional for a lost ball is not allowed for an unplayable, etc. It is conceivable, and correct me if I am wrong, that two provisionals could be played - one for OB and another for unplayable.

The latter brings up another interesting question: What if you would rather play an unplayable from where the 1st ball finished rather than the provisional tee shot? FourPutt - jump in.

OK, I am not a rules guru, so cut me some slack, please.

Perhaps you should stop calling them provisionals as they are not. Rule 3-3 allows completing the hole playing two balls in uncertain situations. But provisional ball is totally different thing.

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