Why Don't You Take Lessons?

[Ernest Jones]

Thanks EJ, I think.

I know you mean well but you talk like i should be able to feel this all the way to impact. In reality transition to impact for me is basically just a blur. I am stupid right?

Well, talking about feel is pretty fraught with danger to begin with! The falling sensation may not even work for you but FWIW I feel it until around A6 (shaft parallel to the ground on the way down) and then it's all turn. If I can stay shallow till A6 it's pretty damn hard to come over the top from there.

I am stupid right?

I have no idea if you're stupid.

[TT47]

Originally Posted by Ernest Jones

Well, talking about feel is pretty fraught with danger to begin with! The falling sensation may not even work for you but FWIW I feel it until around A6 (shaft parallel to the ground on the way down) and then it's all turn. If I can stay shallow till A6 it's pretty damn hard to come over the top from there.

I hit pretty nice draws. I guess I don't come over the top!

I have no idea if you're stupid.

That comment was actually tongue in cheek /rhetorical!

[JonMA1]

Perhaps it was a bit of a troll post but I just hate to see people wasting their money.

Books just provide so much more information per dollar. And a great book is a lot easier to find than a great instructor.

I don't consider your post a troll. I respect you opinion and there's nothing wrong with going against conventional wisdom. But I don't agree with you.

People can improve by getting lots of information from the internet, video and books, but for most of us, it's a very slow process. And yes, if you hire a poor instructor, it can be not only a waste of money, it can set you back the time it will take to undo the damage.

But the key point to almost everyone's post is the benefit from proper instruction. With all the posts in all the threads from good players that claim instruction has helped their game - not to mention the fact that professional golfers hire swing coaches - it's hard for me to disagree.

Saying "golf instruction is for people with money or poor reading comprehension" is as much of an over-simplification as  "the only way for anyone to improve is to take lessons".  Neither of those statements are true

[Ernest Jones]

I hit pretty nice draws. I guess I don't come over the top!

Sorry, I was talking about me. It's pretty hard for ME to come OTT from there.

[TT47]

Originally Posted by JonMA1

But the key point to almost everyone's post is the benefit from proper instruction. With all the posts in all the threads from good players that claim instruction has helped their game - not to mention the fact that professional golfers hire swing coaches - it's hard for me to disagree.

From my experience you are going to spend a lot of money before you actually find some 'proper' instruction whatever that is.

[Ernest Jones]

I don't consider your post a troll. I respect you opinion and there's nothing wrong with going against conventional wisdom. But I don't agree with you. People can improve by getting lots of information from the internet, video and books, but for most of us, it's a very slow process. And yes, if you hire a poor instructor, it can be not only a waste of money, it can set you back the time it will take to undo the damage. But the key point to almost everyone's post is the benefit from proper instruction. With all the posts in all the threads from good players that claim instruction has helped their game - not to mention the fact that professional golfers hire swing coaches - it's hard for me to disagree. Saying "golf instruction is for people with money or poor reading comprehension" is as much of an over-simplification as  "the only way for anyone to improve is to take lessons".  Neither of those statements are true

It's not WHAT he is saying that comes across as troll-y, it's HOW he is saying it. He knows it and we know it.

[JonMA1]

From my experience you are going to spend a lot of money before you actually find some 'proper' instruction whatever that is.

I guess it depends on what "a lot of money" means to you. If I'm having trouble feeding my family (probably 90% of the world's population), the entire concept of playing golf at any level is a waste of money.

It's not WHAT he is saying that comes across as troll-y, it's HOW he is saying it. He knows it and we know it.

I guess I'd have to understand the mindset of trolling. I may not have the most interesting lifestyle but I can always find something better to do than purposely aggravate others through the internet. That's what company email is for.

[Lihu]

I don't think talent is largely relevant to this topic. An instructor isn't going to be able to overcome poor coordination any more than a book can. Books are a lot more patient with those kind of folks.

I disagree completely with this argument. Most instructors can't overcome poor coordination, but the better ones can. In fact, I am probably not a good example of a poorly coordinated individual, but I struggled to learn for the last 8 months with nothing to show for it. I now know that my old instructor was thinking that I am uncoordinated and should give up, or just keep shoveling him money. The negative reinforcement of my extensive practice sessions created vast mental blocks as I was told I made no "progress". He then told me to do things contrary to what felt right and could not be physically achievable. It was not just uncomfortable in a "new feel" sense, but I would literally have to break my parts of my arms and wrists to do what he said. To top it off, I do have above average coordination. However, I did find good instruction on this site , and am making good progress.

[mvmac]

How on earth does one shallow the plane on the downswing anyhoot?

Have the weight transfer forward on the downswing and feel like the right elbow is below the left on the downswing. You practice this by making very slow practice swing and exaggerating the feel.

Would be a good video to watch as well

[Dr._chip_in]

I don't consider your post a troll. I respect you opinion and there's nothing wrong with going against conventional wisdom. But I don't agree with you.

People can improve by getting lots of information from the internet, video and books, but for most of us, it's a very slow process. And yes, if you hire a poor instructor, it can be not only a waste of money, it can set you back the time it will take to undo the damage.

But the key point to almost everyone's post is the benefit from proper instruction. With all the posts in all the threads from good players that claim instruction has helped their game - not to mention the fact that professional golfers hire swing coaches - it's hard for me to disagree.

Saying "golf instruction is for people with money or poor reading comprehension" is as much of an over-simplification as  "the only way for anyone to improve is to take lessons".  Neither of those statements are true

I never really concluded golf instruction couldn't be beneficial. It's just that I you can get equal results for 1/10 of the price, people and going to go in that direction. Thereby answering the query in the title of the thread as to why most folks don't take any lessons.

It's not WHAT he is saying that comes across as troll-y, it's HOW he is saying it. He knows it and we know it.

Well if knew people were going to fly off of the handle due to a little overly strong wording to the end of an otherwise legitimate post i might have revised it. I spend a whole lot more time on one of the more popular tennis forums were a post such as my original would hardly stand out amongst those who have truly mastered the art of the troll post. Most of the folks on TT just have fun with it alongside of the more serious discussion. And who knows, someone might have identified with my plight had my intentions not been questioned so early. Its not like I never had a lesson before. After having gotten my game to a pretty good level on my own I did take a series of lessons at one of the nicer clubs in my area. It took me a little to long to notice that the instuctor really wasn't trying to work with my swing but instead try and make me into some sort of Adam Scott look alike. screwed up my game for a while before i could swap out the new moves that really weren't compatible with my swing style.

[TT47]

I guess it depends on what "a lot of money" means to you. If I'm having trouble feeding my family (probably 90% of the world's population), the entire concept of playing golf at any level is a waste of money.

50 quid an hour is a lot, especially when the instructor is really only interested in the golfer who is going to come again and again. Lets face it, no real change is going to happen  during an hour session. I know a guy who spent a whole day with a 'proper instructing' pro and felt the real benefits started to happen late into that session. He claimed that it took at least a couple of hours for the pro to understand the way forward for this guy. Not because the pro didn't see the main faults right away but because there had to be an equilibrium of understanding on the guys part as to how best tackle his improvement. He's the paying customer after all. This guy told me, in his opinion, that an hour session is a waste of time and unless you're ready to take at least 8 hours, blocked into a short period, then you are probably wasting your time. I agree with his logic but I can't afford 400 quid for instruction, simple as that.

[nevets88]

50 quid an hour is a lot, especially when the instructor is really only interested in the golfer who is going to come again and again. Lets face it, no real change is going to happen  during an hour session. I know a guy who spent a whole day with a 'proper instructing' pro and felt the real benefits started to happen late into that session. He claimed that it took at least a couple of hours for the pro to understand the way forward for this guy. Not because the pro didn't see the main faults right away but because there had to be an equilibrium of understanding on the guys part as to how best tackle his improvement. He's the paying customer after all. This guy told me, in his opinion, that an hour session is a waste of time and unless you're ready to take at least 8 hours, blocked into a short period, then you are probably wasting your time. I agree with his logic but I can't afford 400 quid for instruction, simple as that.

I respectfully disagree. There are instructors out there who can get you swinging markedly better in 5 minutes, even less because he/she will see the priority piece to rectify immediately. It's all prioritization. In 1, 1.5 hours, he/she will get a lot done to reinforce the new change. The reason most people are dubious of instruction is because they rarely have seen this class of instructor in person, in action. I've experienced it myself and have talked to and seen before and after videos of students after one lesson. I don't blame people for being doubtful - the problem is pros this good are very rare. And any such instructor probably offers online instruction a rate less than in person lessons - you can spring for an in-person lesson once in a while. The problem is finding him/her. There's no surefire way to but ample evidence of before and after photos and videos, videos of the instructor swinging him/herself, a large staple of students that include high school/university players and pros, use of high speed video/doppler radar and a very busy schedule are some indicators imho.

[Klarkus]

I do think lessons are expensive if the Pro teaching you doesn't use any equipment/technology.

The pro who taught me charged me £20 for half hour and I had to buy the balls from the range. He would watch me hit 10-15 balls then tell me what I was doing wrong. Make me hit another 10-15 and try again...by the time I had hit 50 balls the lesson was up. He helped me for the first few weeks but after that I basically taught myself with youtube videos.

If there was a Pro near me that used some kind of measuring technology I would pay a lot because you can see for yourself what you are doing right or wrong where as a Pro just telling you is different. You can't see what you are doing right or wrong.

Again though teaching yourself is hard because you can't actually see what you are doing wrong.

[JonMA1]

50 quid an hour is a lot, especially when the instructor is really only interested in the golfer who is going to come again and again. Lets face it, no real change is going to happen  during an hour session. I know a guy who spent a whole day with a 'proper instructing' pro and felt the real benefits started to happen late into that session. He claimed that it took at least a couple of hours for the pro to understand the way forward for this guy. Not because the pro didn't see the main faults right away but because there had to be an equilibrium of understanding on the guys part as to how best tackle his improvement. He's the paying customer after all. This guy told me, in his opinion, that an hour session is a waste of time and unless you're ready to take at least 8 hours, blocked into a short period, then you are probably wasting your time. I agree with his logic but I can't afford 400 quid for instruction, simple as that.

I think for the most part we agree. For some instructors, it's 100% about the money. I don't think those pros are "bad" or necessarily dishonest, but I'd prefer one who cares just a little bit for their students improvement and understands many of us are on a budget and cannot take lessons every week. While I think it's possible to learn something valuable in an hour, there is just too much to learn to expect miracles from a couple of lessons.

The pros, moderators and members of this site help us less knowledgeable members for free. Would Dave and Erik like it if we all took lessons through Evolvr or purchase 5sk video? Sure they would. But they seem to put a tremendous amount of effort towards helping without asking for a dime.

Just so you know, I cannot afford lessons either at least not at this time (in fact, if I had to pay the green fees many folks have to pay, I'd probably not be involved with this game at any level). As I've previously posted, I had a less-than-stellar experience with a local teaching pro in 2012. But I still believe with a decent instructor there's real value in it for someone who has the money.

[jvalhalla]

I prefer to figure things out on my own...and I'm cheap. I love playing golf but I am not delusional that I'm going to make the tour. I compete with myself, not others. I've been a far better golfer than I currently am but I'm good with where I'm at. If I really wanted to be a better golfer I'd probably spend an hour or two a day putting and chipping which would make me so much better than spending money on lessons. Now if I ever developed an issue so serious where I wasn't having fun, I might take a lesson or two. To me it is all about how much I am enjoying the game.

[Lihu]

I prefer to figure things out on my own...and I'm cheap. I love playing golf but I am not delusional that I'm going to make the tour....To me it is all about how much I am enjoying the game.

Nothing delusional about making many more pars or an occasional birdie (so far this eludes me). :-) Might make it more fun to be able to play faster and enjoy the scenery too.

[jvalhalla]

True, but I'm fairly aware of what my problems are. My main problem is I don't enjoy practicing my putting these days...if I put in the work I'd lower my score. I don't need a pro to tell me that. I have limited time available and prefer to just go play or hit the driving range. That is fun to me.

Trust me, I don't hold people up on the course, even when I'm walking!

[Lihu]

True, but I'm fairly aware of what my problems are. My main problem is I don't enjoy practicing my putting these days...if I put in the work I'd lower my score. I don't need a pro to tell me that. I have limited time available and prefer to just go play or hit the driving range. That is fun to me. Trust me, I don't hold people up on the course, even when I'm walking!

Didn't mean to say I thought you were slow. The emphasis was on having a better second shot, and instead of worrying about what to do on the next shot that you could be enjoying the scenery instead.