Tempo, tempo, tempo!!!!!

[saevel25]

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

[iacas]

If tempo is not in your top priorities as a teacher, what do you consider your top five check points when beginning to work with a new student? (Please prioritize.)  Thanks. :)

http://thesandtrap.com/t/55426/introducing-five-simple-keys

Hey @saevel25 :

That was

And @dfreuter415 , you misread or misunderstood what I wrote. I don't go into any lessons with pre-conceived lists of priorities (unless it's getting the 5 Simple Keys® down). Each student will have a different swing, different background, different everything, and as a result, have a different priority.

[dsc123]

I'll just say this, and you can all go back to ignoring what @Phil McGleno said - I've almost never seen a student where tempo ranks as a priority item, particularly in a higher handicap player. Have I worked on tempo with some players? Yes, as part of a more complete lesson. Will people's swings improve with an "improved" tempo (whatever that means…)? Of course (even if it's only a little). Is it something that consistently ranks in the top five, ten, or even fifteen things that a golfer needs to worry about, in my experience?

No.

You often identify three keys to putting as picking the line, hitting the line, and controlling your distance.  As I understand it, tempo is hugely important for distance control.  So it seems to me like it would make sense to put a greater priority in tempo when talking about putting .  Would you @Phil McGleno agree with that?

This is of particular interest to me at the moment because using the iPing app I've recently noticed that I have a slow and inconsistent putting tempo.  I've decided to treat as my putting priority at the moment.

[iacas]

So it seems to me like it would make sense to put a greater priority in tempo when talking about putting.

Tempo is a big component of distance control in putting, yes.

Kind of not the topic here though. A good topic though, for elsewhere. I'm heading out soon so start that thread if you want. Or find an existing "putting/tempo" thread.

[phan52]

In my experience almost any instructor who goes to "tempo is your problem" is a poor instructor who cant actually identify the real reasons for your problems.

Lots of different tempos on the pGA Tour.

I agree that tempo is way down the list of essentials for a good golf swing, but I have found that when I lose my personally effective tempo, the rest of it goes to crap.

[hendog]

I certainly won't sit here and tell you Tempo is the difference between a 20 handicap and a 10 but I know personally for me that a poor tempo can get in the way of what I am trying to do and add 3-5 strokes if the mistakes are big enough. Perfect example last weekend. Two almost identical par 3s. First one my tempo was perfect and I hit a 4i hole high and made birdie. Next one I got a little quick with my body and wiped it and was lucky it didn't get wet. Chipped it on and 2 putted for a Bogey.

So I guess my point is that a good tempo won't fix bad mechanics but a bad tempo can mess up good mechanics.

(edit) Phan52 said it well

[3putter]

The OP sounds like just like me, it's crazy.

2 things were pointed out as a flaw in my swing, my tempo (getting unnecessarily quick without completing my back swing), and moving my head (Freaking thing has a mind of it own).

When I get quick, I tend not to complete my back swing, and then not incorporate my lower body into the down swing. However when I develop a rhythm, all the components fall into the right sequence, which leads to an effortless swing for me.

P.S. I am the farthest thing from a pro. So it's best to assume I'm talking out of the wrong orifice.

[hendog]

... and moving my head (Freaking thing has a mind of it own).

This made me laugh. Your head has a mind of its own :)

I know the feeling.

[ay33660]

"Sequencing" itself is a hundred different things.

All I know is that I could probably play against a 20 having the tempo day of his life, while dictating (within some reasonable boundaries) the tempo I had to use on EVERY swing, and still beat him handily. I'm defining "tempo" as the ratio of the backswing to the downswing, or the "flow" of the swing. There are fast tempos, slow tempos, etc. Most good players shake out at 2.5:1 or 3:1, but you can be 3:1 and be Nick Price or 3:1 and be Ernie Els, too.

I'll just say this, and you can all go back to ignoring what @Phil McGleno said - I've almost never seen a student where tempo ranks as a priority item, particularly in a higher handicap player. Have I worked on tempo with some players? Yes, as part of a more complete lesson. Will people's swings improve with an "improved" tempo (whatever that means…)? Of course (even if it's only a little). Is it something that consistently ranks in the top five, ten, or even fifteen things that a golfer needs to worry about, in my experience?

No.

I defer to the golf pro as obviously I am not one.

Obviously I am incorrectly using the word tempo.

What I include in my mistaken use of the word tempo is the feeling of actually finishing my back swing before I start my down swing.

(I am left handed so keep that in mind in my references to my left and right side)

When I rush my tempo it feels like I don't finish my back swing and I initiate my down swing with my left arm or shoulder.

When I feel like I am in tempo it feels like my down swing is initiated by my lower body, then my upper body goes along for the ride. My left side stays quiet.

[saevel25]

I defer to the golf pro as obviously I am not one.

Obviously I am mistaking using the word tempo.

What I include in my mistaken use of the word tempo is the feeling of actually finishing my back swing before I start my down swing.

(I am left handed so keep that in mind in my references to my left and right side)

When I rush my tempo it feels like I don't finish my back swing and I initiate my down swing with my left arm or shoulder.

When I feel like I am in tempo it feels like my down swing is initiated by my lower body, then my upper body goes along for the ride. My left side stays quiet.

Feel isn't real. It what you think might happen, but unless you see it on video or by another person, then what you think you feel may or may not be happening at all.

Example, I am the complete opposite. My lower body is very active. I have to worry about my head falling away from the target in the downswing. This is a by product of trying to force the path inside out incorrectly. For me, I hit my best drives when I feel like my arms are starting down before my back swing finishes. What I am actually doing is dropping my hands earlier in the back swing. My lower body still fires first, but I want to get the club head inside earlier, so I need to feel like my arms are dropping before my lower body fires. But of course feel isn't what actually is happening.

I certainly won't sit here and tell you Tempo is the difference between a 20 handicap and a 10 but I know personally for me that a poor tempo can get in the way of what I am trying to do and add 3-5 strokes if the mistakes are big enough. Perfect example last weekend. Two almost identical par 3s. First one my tempo was perfect and I hit a 4i hole high and made birdie. Next one I got a little quick with my body and wiped it and was lucky it didn't get wet. Chipped it on and 2 putted for a Bogey.

So I guess my point is that a good tempo won't fix bad mechanics but a bad tempo can mess up good mechanics.

(edit) Phan52 said it well

Is that a tempo problem or a swing problem? Everyone says, "Oh you swing to hard", or "Oh that swing was to quick". I believe more that if a golfer's swing is not solid then the tempo being off. When I examine other golfers, especially high handicap players. Their swings don't look any quicker or faster from good shots to bad shots. I've seen a guy thin an iron with the same smooth tempo as he does when he hits one solid. A person's tempo is their tempo. Given poor mechanics can throw off a tempo, but that bad tempo from poor mechanics is repeatable. Just fixing the tempo will not fix a faulty swing.

[3putter]

This made me laugh. Your head has a mind of its own :)

I know the feeling.

ha! I wanted to add "Pun intended"

[hendog]

Feel isn't real. It what you think might happen, but unless you see it on video or by another person, then what you think you feel may or may not be happening at all.

Example, I am the complete opposite. My lower body is very active. I have to worry about my head falling away from the target in the downswing. This is a by product of trying to force the path inside out incorrectly. For me, I hit my best drives when I feel like my arms are starting down before my back swing finishes. What I am actually doing is dropping my hands earlier in the back swing. My lower body still fires first, but I want to get the club head inside earlier, so I need to feel like my arms are dropping before my lower body fires. But of course feel isn't what actually is happening.

Is that a tempo problem or a swing problem? Everyone says, "Oh you swing to hard", or "Oh that swing was to quick". I believe more that if a golfer's swing is not solid then the tempo being off. When I examine other golfers, especially high handicap players. Their swings don't look any quicker or faster from good shots to bad shots. I've seen a guy thin an iron with the same smooth tempo as he does when he hits one solid. A person's tempo is their tempo. Given poor mechanics can throw off a tempo, but that bad tempo from poor mechanics is repeatable. Just fixing the tempo will not fix a faulty swing.

I think for the most part we are agreeing. I don't have the greatest mechanics but I am pretty good at making adjustments during a round. But if my tempo is all over the place then the results are all over the place and its harder for me to make an adjustment. If my tempo overall is consistent then the results start to normalize and if I am doing something mechanically wrong the evidence piles up and I can make an adjustment.

So I guess I am saying that my tempo or lack there of can distort my results thus preventing me from understanding what is going on. Of course I don't work with an instructor so I have to rely on my feel and ultimately the results where as an instructor could see through the inconsistent results and identify a root cause. Perhaps that is the real point of contention here.

[ay33660]

Feel isn't real. It what you think might happen, but unless you see it on video or by another person, then what you think you feel may or may not be happening at all.

Actually I'm embarrassed to admit that I have taken lots of lessons and I have seen the my left shoulder jab move on video.

All of the pros are amazed that I can even make contact with the ball.

If you think Jim Furyk's swing looks bad ....... at least he has the coordination to make good contact. Now imagine a worst swing by someone without coordination.

[MissouriHack]

Listen to your instructor. He is the one watching your swing. Give it some time, ask him questions and take notes. Make sure you do the drills that he assigns to you. When I was doing my drills it was a totally different way to practice than I did before and I did not hit the ball as well at first. But after the changes took it really helped a lot. Your going to have to trust him and see it through. Right now your uncomfortable and thats ok. Just keep working at it and your more likely to build good habits instead of locking in bad ones.