Looking for ideas

[bjfox10]

I was recently elected to the members board at the club that I belong. One of the reasons I ran was because I was sick of seeing tournament net scores that were statistically I'll say "improbable". After discussion at my first board meeting it became apparent that the biggest problem is getting people to post all of the scores that they should post. I know there's been a couple discussions on what should be and should not be posted but I think that's a different topic. What I'm trying to find is a solution/idea to get people to post more of their scores. If anyone has seen ideas that have worked at their club I love to hear about them...thanks in advance.

[ctcampbell]

I guess making a game of it, prizes for most number of scores turned in or similar?

[PirateJim]

I'm not sure there is much of a way to actually stop the intentional cheat since there's nothing to keep them from going ahead and posting an incorrect score.  Golf depends upon personal integrity.  Any sort of "rule" you could institute to force people to post all of their scores would hurt all of the decent people that aren't cheating and the cheaters would simply turn in padded scores and laugh about it.  There are also those people that do post all of their scores, but tend to play a lot of different courses, "traveling handicaps" tend to run higher than those of homebodies that stick to their own club.

The least draconian solution I can think of would be to establish a "tournament association" that would be open to all members that had an interest in participating in organized tournaments.  Part of being a member of this association would be turning in score cards to the pro shop attested by everyone in the group for every round played.  These could be used to establish a local handicap to be used for your tournaments.  You would need to establish some number of allowed missed turn-ins and drop that person from tournament eligibility if the exceed it.  But the person intent on cheating might well still manage to post padded scores.  Making rules to enforce ethical behavior is always a slippery slope.

[RayG]

If they are vanity handicappers, and there are a lot of them, have them play in GROSS formats against those with what you suspect are legitimate hdcp's. The excuse train will be as long as your arm, but they won't be taking prizes they don't deserve. If they are sandbagging, then the committee can and SHOULD have the power to adjust hdcp's accordingly. Not just have the 'good ol' boy network' let it all slide. Sandbaggers are the lowest form of cheat in that situation. Nobody wants them or likes them. I once joined an association, but didn't have a hdcp. I estimated at about 13 with my general scores. Well, I shot lights out the first competition and was suspected of bagging, until the next week when my hdcp was adjusted down to an 8 and I proceeded to shoot my normal 85 for the time. Until I got my official # (12) a few weeks later, I was always suspect.

[dave s]

This might be an interesting perspective.  Our golf league has 32 guys.  Not sure exactly what hdcp software we use to to determine exact hdcp of individuals, but over the past 3 years we've made some changes.

Here's what used to happen:  The high-hdcp guys won all the money.  It's too easy for a guy on the #5 hdcp hole getting 3 shots to make a net eagle (bogey gross score) and take money from legitimate gross birdie scores.  The guys who shoot 35-42 each week  rarely claimed a skin.  Their only chance at winning anything was knocking one to 2' on a par three and making the putt.  The closest-to-pin shot holds up, but a gross bogey less 2 strokes takes away a kick-in birdie.

What we did:  2 stroke hdcp limit on par 4s and 5s, 1 stroke hdcp limit on par-3s. Doesn't matter what you shoot, you're only going to get credit for 15 shots on the front and 16 on the back nine.  The past two seasons, the guys who used to play to a 21 (for 9 holes!) were no longer winning money week in and week out.  If you want to win money, play better!

Sometimes hdcp reward the inept.  It doesn't make it fair, IMO.  The better players are still winning the matches.  They might not win all the money, (and they don't, believe me!) but over the past two seasons, the distribution of winnings is much more evenly distributed.

I'm not sure this means anything to the OP, but there ARE different ways of looking at hdcp and how it is applied to match play events.  And for the guys I play with, nobody comes in with net scores in the 20s for 9 holes.  Guys with high hdcp have to play well to get even par net round scores.  And again, IMO, a more fair approach can be applied to those who sandbag by going +8 on the last three holes of every round to 'keep that hdcp' where they want it.

Bottom line is some people will cheat, lie and steal to win a tournament.  It's up to 'the committee' to find ways of NOT allowing sandbaggers to win all the time!

dave

[boil3rmak3r]

Yeah, this is a tricky thing. We all know that it's much easier for an 18 handicap to play 1 round of golf to a 12 handicap level than it would be for a 6 handicap play 1 round to a scratch level. So, if there are LOTS of golfers in a tournament and 100% handicap is used, I'm not sure you'll ever get high and low caps on equal footing. Maybe the tournaments can be played at, maybe 80% of handicaps... Also, maybe you implement a "tournament" handicap. After two tournaments, each player has to use the lower if their official handicap or the handicap as calculated by ONLY their tournament scores. Just a thought. At one of my old clubs, we had a guy that routinely started the month of June with a 10 or 11 handicap. By October, he'd be a 4 handicap. It was like clockwork... He would routinely win the "player of the year" award because he did so well in tournaments. Everyone knew what he was (still is?) doing, but the staff didn't have the guts to call him out on it. It was amazing how many AI scores this guy posted in the spring which cranked his cap way up..

[hopefulhacker]

I was recently elected to the members board at the club that I belong. One of the reasons I ran was because I was sick of seeing tournament net scores that were statistically I'll say "improbable". After discussion at my first board meeting it became apparent that the biggest problem is getting people to post all of the scores that they should post. I know there's been a couple discussions on what should be and should not be posted but I think that's a different topic. What I'm trying to find is a solution/idea to get people to post more of their scores. If anyone has seen ideas that have worked at their club I love to hear about them...thanks in advance.

Quick question: Are these competitions for members only or are they open to anyone to walk in to play? If "Open" to anyone, then maybe you could adopt a 3/4 handicap rule. Guy paying off 24 goes to 18, guy off 4 goes to 3. It's something we use over here (Ireland) for team events. If it is a members comp then I think it's a lot easier. Why not make it mandatory to "sign in" to the comp before the round. If the player does not return their card post round, impose a penalty that is to be applied to their next round. We have a very different handicap system over here. You need to sign in, in advance obv, before each round you want to go towards your HC. If you don't return your card, you get 0.1 added to your HC (there are flaws in that as someone could have had a brilliant round, decide to sandbag, and get a higher HC) Each bad round you play, the maximum Increase is 0.1. So a 10 HC could shoot 10 rounds of 95 but they would only increase there HC by 10 * 0.1's.... Giving them a HC of 11. It really helps with sandbagging, or should I say, helps to reduce the degree of sandbagging. Another big positive I see with our system is that you can only ever gain 2 shots each year. A 10 HC this year can only drop to a maximum of12 HC (unless he appeals it... Very rare that an appeal is upheld unless the players health has really deteriorated and can prove that a big physical change has occurred to allow them a higher HC) All these measures are based on the premise that if you can play to 10 HC, you don't get dramatically worse in any 12 month period. Another positive with our system is that, while you can only increase your HC by 2 shots in a calendar year, on the opposite side, if you win a tournament or comp then you will be cut for that individual win. And while this cut to HC varies, you would expect a cut of 2 shots. So a sandbagger only really has one or two chances to win each year. Sorry for the long post, but it may give you some ideas. Our HC system is far from perfect, but I think the above aspects are quite good.

[bjfox10]

Thank you for your thoughts and ideas I appreciate you guys taking the time to post your ideas. Most of the events that I will help over see are member only events but our pro shop does collect score cards. It seems that the biggest challenge will be finding the balance between keeping tournament fields full and having the scoring as accurate as possible. If I can't get any of your ideas to fly I'll just keep voting to play scratch with the flight.

[CUT69]

I'm not sure there is much of a way to actually stop the intentional cheat since there's nothing to keep them from going ahead and posting an incorrect score.  Golf depends upon personal integrity.  Any sort of "rule" you could institute to force people to post all of their scores would hurt all of the decent people that aren't cheating and the cheaters would simply turn in padded scores and laugh about it.  There are also those people that do post all of their scores, but tend to play a lot of different courses, "traveling handicaps" tend to run higher than those of homebodies that stick to their own club.

The least draconian solution I can think of would be to establish a "tournament association" that would be open to all members that had an interest in participating in organized tournaments.  Part of being a member of this association would be turning in score cards to the pro shop attested by everyone in the group for every round played.  These could be used to establish a local handicap to be used for your tournaments.  You would need to establish some number of allowed missed turn-ins and drop that person from tournament eligibility if the exceed it.  But the person intent on cheating might well still manage to post padded scores.  Making rules to enforce ethical behavior is always a slippery slope.

+1

[DennisMiller]

Does anyone check the cards versus the score posted on the handicap sheet?

Years ago at the country club where I grew up, you signed in at the proshop before you went on the course and it was more common in those days to attest a card among players. The scores were supposed to be written on a large sheet on the bulletin board and someone, I presume the Handicap Chairman, checked whether people turned in a score and that it was correct according to the card.

If someone played and didn't turn in a score, their handicap was dropped by a stroke.

I don't know what happened if someone's card didn't match their score on the board.

[Fourputt]

I was recently elected to the members board at the club that I belong. One of the reasons I ran was because I was sick of seeing tournament net scores that were statistically I'll say "improbable". After discussion at my first board meeting it became apparent that the biggest problem is getting people to post all of the scores that they should post.

I know there's been a couple discussions on what should be and should not be posted but I think that's a different topic. What I'm trying to find is a solution/idea to get people to post more of their scores. If anyone has seen ideas that have worked at their club I love to hear about them...thanks in advance.

The best solution if it is a real problem is to only use tournament scores for handicap.  The next best thing is adjust and freeze a suspicious handicap based on how he most often scores in tournaments.  That way you only punish the guilty, but it's a bit more work.

[turtleback]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjfox10

I was recently elected to the members board at the club that I belong. One of the reasons I ran was because I was sick of seeing tournament net scores that were statistically I'll say "improbable". After discussion at my first board meeting it became apparent that the biggest problem is getting people to post all of the scores that they should post.

I know there's been a couple discussions on what should be and should not be posted but I think that's a different topic. What I'm trying to find is a solution/idea to get people to post more of their scores. If anyone has seen ideas that have worked at their club I love to hear about them...thanks in advance.

Read the handicap manual.  The handicap committee has a lot of power if they choose to exert it.  For example, check the tee sheet.  If a player plays and there is no score posted, the handicap committee can post a score for him.  It will tick off a lot of people, but if you want to be serious strong steps will be necessary.

From the Manual:

Quote:

b. Penalty Scores for Failure to Post

If a player fails to post an acceptable score as soon as practical after completion of the round, the Handicap Committee has three options:

1) Post the actual score made by the player;

2) Post a penalty score equal to the lowest/highest Handicap Differential in the scoring record ;

3) Post the actual score and a penalty score

The Handicap Committee is not required to notify the player prior to posting a penalty score.

and

Quote:

(iv) Player Manipulates Round
The Handicap Committee must adjust or withdraw the Handicap Index of a player who manipulates scores. (See Section 8-4f .) Examples of manipulating scores include the following:

(a) Posting erroneous information to the scoring record;

(b) Stopping play after 6 holes to avoid posting scores;

(c) Repeatedly playing more than one ball to avoid posting scores;

(d) Not adjusting hole scores under Section 4 ;

(e) Deliberately reporting more or fewer strokes than actually scored;

(f) Deliberately taking extra strokes to inflate a score.

(g) Not observing either or both of the two basic premises that underlie the USGA Handicap System (see Section 1-1 )

[Spitfisher]

God I love this post! because its dealing with the most despicable part of golf, the thieves and cheats. They're low life's. I have yet to find a cheater that doesn't lie and liar that doesn't cheat. That said you need to adopt a zero tolerance to bad score card recording and submission. There should be no first time warning. So here are some ideas that we did at our semi private club with a similar concerns. I'm sure there is more ideas. First form a small tournament/handicap committee, maybe 6-8 people, representing all the groups ( women, men, old, young, the betting guys, the non betting guys) we purposely included one known or suspected sandbagger in our group. Discuss openly the problem, make sure you refer to it as cheating. You need to take back control of your clubs tourneys and members. I can guarantee you there are players on the sidelines that won't play in tourneys and leagues because of the sandbagging. This may require some tough love decisions. Keep the remaining members informed of the meeting discussions and policy changes for score recording, tourneys, qualifiers, and leagues Keep members informed with "DID you know...." emails, posted sheets over the urinals, locker rooms, menus and on applications for leagues or tourneys. above of all make sure everyone knows that handicap is NOT your average score. Inform them of the positive of owning an accurate handicap. There is a wealth of information on the USGA web. Some of which deal with statistics or likely hood of breaking or meeting your handicap score. About 1 in every 6 rounds, to do back to back rounds it goes up to 1 in 30 rounds. Pretty soon BOB will realize that TONY is beating his handicap consistently and figure it out that the likelihood is highly improbable and will bring it to TONYs attention or the committee. Be ready to address and act on this promptly- if you don't the cheaters win and your committee has failed. I would suggest a private meeting with the player and the committee, never one on one. Explain the concern and the penalty. I would suggest suspension form any league or tourney for a month or entire season. Also explain there is no recourse or appeal. Do not get in a discussion of how or why , remember they will lie to your face. If they sense any weakness or misunderstanding they will call this into their reasoning of why they are innocent. If you don't have a league start one, always use at least 2 flights 0-11.9 handicap and 12+ Sandbagger's hate playing against other sandbaggers. Any player who wins flight two automatically goes into flight 1. Record all scores at 75% handicap and as tournament scores. Never handicap par 3 Make it mandatory that all tourney, qualifier or league score cards are attested by another player they are signed AND not entered. Never have the player keep his own card to record scores. Have the pro, shop help or tourney committee enter them later. Failure to turn in a signed card, you can't play in the next event or league. BTW, this is something the pros do. Prior to a tournament, make it mandatory 5 rounds need to be played and recorded score by hole by a partner that signs and turns in the card. For god sake get rid of the awarding of NET score for prizes, money, shop credit etc this is just an incentive cheat. During league or tourney play, purposely break up the good ol boys or specific groups that have consistent suspected score, make them play with someone else. Like I said there is some tough things to implement! but that will be the only way you can break this cycle. If you make a policy fair for all, only the cheaters will be in disagreement or complain. Remember you are not acting to catch or entrap them.

[Club Rat]

Equitable Stroke Adjustments - Awareness !!!

Not all people understand this process and some do not even know scores should be adjusted (when or why)

This is sometimes the case when high handicappers are not making the correct adjustments.

It takes a period of time for players to realize what a big difference ESA will make.

Club Rat

[ghalfaire]

I was recently elected to the members board at the club that I belong. One of the reasons I ran was because I was sick of seeing tournament net scores that were statistically I'll say "improbable". After discussion at my first board meeting it became apparent that the biggest problem is getting people to post all of the scores that they should post.

I know there's been a couple discussions on what should be and should not be posted but I think that's a different topic. What I'm trying to find is a solution/idea to get people to post more of their scores. If anyone has seen ideas that have worked at their club I love to hear about them...thanks in advance.

There is a provision for this problem in the handicap system.  I forget what it is called but if you have two tournament rounds that are "improbable" you can be assigned a special handicap based on those two rounds.  It is not a perfect solution but I have seen it applied and it helps. Sometimes I think we should adopt the European system of only using tournament scores for handicap.  It would seem to help the problem of "sand bag" golfers.