Parents of Grade-Schoolers - Thoughts on Common Core

[Spyder]

http://time.com/38816/dads-rant-about-common-core-math-problem-goes-viral/

Pretty funny. Is that you, GD?

[Golfingdad]

http://time.com/38816/dads-rant-about-common-core-math-problem-goes-viral/

Pretty funny. Is that you, GD?

LOL, no ... but that guys rant (which was also referenced in the Yahoo link I posted) is part of what caused me to start this thread.  I'm actually still leaning towards the assumption that smart people came up with Common Core, and they did it for a reason, and I am going to withhold my judgment of it until I fully understand it.

The idea of this thread was to try and help me understand it more. :)

I also just learned yesterday from a co-worker who has grade school aged kids and a grade school teacher wife that it's not really been implemented in California just yet.  Probably next year.

Oh, and my brother is a high school math teacher, also in California. Hey @SCfanatic35 , are you guys using CC yet?  What say you?

[SCfanatic35]

Yes, we started implementing the CCSS this year in grades K-9. Next year we will be adding 10th grade curriculum as well, the year after that the 11th grade. In California testing starts next year, but they are giving the test this year as a field test and to start norming the results for next year. The idea behind common core at least for us in high school is to teach more relevant topics and teach it in a way so that kids need to think and apply what they have learned. As opposed to the old way which was memorizing concepts and learning test taking strategies to get test scores up. One big issue we are facing is having no curriculum. Most textbook companies aren't going to put their effort into making a textbook until they can see what types of questions kids will be tested on. The good material won't be out until 2016 or later. I do like the idea behind common core because it forces kids to think, kind of like when we were in school. Kids who are caught in the middle right now are struggling as well as teachers who have been told how to teach for so long and now have to teach differently. It's hard to judge how good CC is right now. Probably be a change in about 10 years anyways, that's what goes on in education. They didn't even allow the last standards to go all the way through before getting rid of it. Totally rambling on now.

[SCfanatic35]

One of the big ideas behind the creation of CC is that students are hitting the workforce unprepared. So businesses had a say in these standards. They also looked at other countries that were successful with their educational systems and stole some of their ideas.

[Golfingdad]

Yes, we started implementing the CCSS this year in grades K-9. Next year we will be adding 10th grade curriculum as well, the year after that the 11th grade. In California testing starts next year, but they are giving the test this year as a field test and to start norming the results for next year. The idea behind common core at least for us in high school is to teach more relevant topics and teach it in a way so that kids need to think and apply what they have learned. As opposed to the old way which was memorizing concepts and learning test taking strategies to get test scores up.

One big issue we are facing is having no curriculum. Most textbook companies aren't going to put their effort into making a textbook until they can see what types of questions kids will be tested on. The good material won't be out until 2016 or later.

I do like the idea behind common core because it forces kids to think, kind of like when we were in school. Kids who are caught in the middle right now are struggling as well as teachers who have been told how to teach for so long and now have to teach differently. It's hard to judge how good CC is right now. Probably be a change in about 10 years anyways, that's what goes on in education. They didn't even allow the last standards to go all the way through before getting rid of it. Totally rambling on now.

Not rambling at all ... and possibly the most informed post here yet.  Thanks!

It sounds like it's possible that CC could turn out quite well - if they allow it to.  Albeit with a lot of growing pains (the teachers having to re-learn and the textbook lag, etc)

[colin007]

Two points - 1)As was mentioned earlier, the number one thing that separates my better students from the mediocre ones is their reading ability. The bright students who can read and read at a high level can almost teach themselves. 2)We don't push our kids nearly hard enough. The US has become soft. Our kids are not willing to work hard. Many aren't even willing to read directions, they want you to read them for them. IMHO I think we need to stop spending so much of elementary school gluing macaroni to construction paper and start hammering them with ELA, reading, more ELA and then more reading. Of course, not all kids are like this, but at this point I'd say most are.

[Golfingdad]

Two points -

1)As was mentioned earlier, the number one thing that separates my better students from the mediocre ones is their reading ability. The bright students who can read and read at a high level can almost teach themselves.

2)We don't push our kids nearly hard enough. The US has become soft. Our kids are not willing to work hard. Many aren't even willing to read directions, they want you to read them for them. IMHO I think we need to stop spending so much of elementary school gluing macaroni to construction paper and start hammering them with ELA, reading, more ELA and then more reading. Of course, not all kids are like this, but at this point I'd say most are.

What's ELA mean?

And it seems like there is a consensus that reading comprehension is the most important factor, and it makes perfect sense.

[jamo]

What's ELA mean? And it seems like there is a consensus that reading comprehension is the most important factor, and it makes perfect sense.

English Language Arts.

[saevel25]

Two points -

1)As was mentioned earlier, the number one thing that separates my better students from the mediocre ones is their reading ability. The bright students who can read and read at a high level can almost teach themselves.

2)We don't push our kids nearly hard enough. The US has become soft. Our kids are not willing to work hard. Many aren't even willing to read directions, they want you to read them for them. IMHO I think we need to stop spending so much of elementary school gluing macaroni to construction paper and start hammering them with ELA, reading, more ELA and then more reading. Of course, not all kids are like this, but at this point I'd say most are.

I agree 100%. Primarily kids need to read more. Its the only way to truly grasp a language. Honestly they can teach all they want about constructing sentences, I think out right just reading is much more important and not enforced enough.

[jamo]

An article I came across today: http://www.vox.com/2014/4/11/5601016/how-is-common-core-testing-going-so-far I'd say the headline is very misleading for an article that's a bit less inflammatory, but it's a pretty good read. That site has a lot of stuff on Common Core that they link to in that article.

[iacas]

https://medium.com/i-math/why-5-x-3-5-5-5-was-marked-wrong-b34607a5b74c

I will admit to hating this kind of stuff.

I absolutely think that kid deserves full credit, and I completely disagree with his take at the end about how teachers "are qualified experts on child education." No, many are not.

I was a "creative" thinker. It helped that I'm smart. Someone (another Mac developer) was posting on Twitter some things that were backing up or supporting that argument. I replied to say:

My wife teaches seventh grade math. She's very good at what she does, by any measure - students love her, fellow teachers love her, parents love her, administrators love her, and her test scores are higher and her students get better grades in later years too. Not for nothing (but give it as much or as little weight as you want), she thinks the article is horsepucky as well, and that if a student has a creative way to solve a problem, and gets the answers right, more power to them.

The author cited in the first link seems to almost defy what he says with the next article he wrote:

https://medium.com/i-math/common-core-math-is-not-the-enemy-c05b68f46b3e

[saevel25]

I get the difference, but I am skeptical if it needs to be made such a big deal that early in the development process. 

I think if kids are able to see both answers are more intuitive in understanding math. I am not a big fan of restricting a person from being more intuitive in finding answers. I think in the end when they get to that level of math that requires the distinction they will grasp it easily because they are more intuitive. Those who are not that intuitive will probably shy away from fields that require it. 

 

[Lihu]

As many of you may already know, I have a couple of kids, , and the oldest is about to start kindergarten in the fall.  So the wife and I have been getting ourselves educated on what to expect.  I'm sure everybody who has kids in school now (in the United States, at least) has some opinions, possibly strong ones, on the new "Common Core" curriculum that several states are implementing.

Even those of you without kids have probably seen people posting on Facebook, or stories on Yahoo!, or both , and seen the complaints of the 'ridiculous' way that they are teaching the kids to add and subtract, among other things.

Anyways, let's hear your thoughts ...

Common core is going to destroy what's left of our public school system, and is yet another reason I don't regret scrimping and saving for my two children's private education. I'm far from rich or very well to do as an engineer, but value their education.

Just to give you some idea of private schools versus public, both my kids score about 18% above the top 25% of the public school students in standardized tests and are only 5-10% above the same group in private schools.

The 8% to 13% difference illustrates to me a serious decline in public education. At one time, private schools were not that much better, and most were worse. They were just breeding grounds for the wealthy. Now, I see the value, because with common core and all the programs for the last 20 years I see only the top 2% of public school children will succeed. That's just because they are smart. Everyone else will suffer just to "even things out".

[Gator Hazard]

22 hours ago, Lihu said:

Common core is going to destroy what's left of our public school system, and is yet another reason I don't regret scrimping and saving for my two children's private education. I'm far from rich or very well to do as an engineer, but value their education.

Just to give you some idea of private schools versus public, both my kids score about 18% above the top 25% of the public school students in standardized tests and are only 5-10% above the same group in private schools.

The 8% to 13% difference illustrates to me a serious decline in public education. At one time, private schools were not that much better, and most were worse. They were just breeding grounds for the wealthy. Now, I see the value, because with common core and all the programs for the last 20 years I see only the top 2% of public school children will succeed. That's just because they are smart. Everyone else will suffer just to "even things out".

I grew up in Las Vegas, one of the worst public school districts in the nation.  This is more to do with the fact that Las Vegas is a very transient town.  What I will say is this:  I was a very average if not below average school from K-12th grade.  I went to a catholic school, my high school alma mater is Bishop Gorman High School (right now the #1 nationally ranked high school football team- Go Gaels!), and here are my observations:

My classes were hard.  I also found out especially later that I did not excel in classes that did not interest me.  Public school kids in high school literally got points just for showing up to class.  One of my friends was kicked out of our high school, went to a different one and overnight he became an honor roll student whereas before he was a c/d/f student.  

When I got to college (UNLV), I was amazed at how far ahead of these other students I was (many of them were from the Las Vegas area as well and of course from other areas of the country).  Here I was a very average student in high school and barely made it into UNLV but if I had gone to a public school in Clark County who knows what my options would have been.  Kids literally were struggling with concepts and problems they should have learned their sophmore year in high school.  My first two years were core classes and I scored better in them than I did in high school and then my final years were all finance, accounting, statistics classes and I blew it out of the water.  I was the guy that everyone hated in the finance classes or came too for help (that blew my mind).  Not trying to brag at all (mega humblebrag huh?), the point is, private school in an average or below average public school district is definitely the way to go, it is money well spent.  I have thanked my parents countless times for sacrificing for me and my sisters and sending us to private school instead of the public schools in Las Vegas.

If you can afford it and you are not in a good public school district definitely go the private school route.  I thank my parents every day that they did that for me.  This isn't to say public schools didn't have lots of smart kids, they did, but it just seems they get a little better teaching and care and that the expectations are higher.

Fortunately we are in a very good school district and the teachers care where my daughter (10 in December) is at.  So long as that is the case we will save the money for my golf lessons and all things golfing related (kidding), but if it changes we will put her in private school.  Middle school she has a chance to go to a magnet school that is good, the middle school we hear is average, not bad but not great so we are on the fence at this point and hope she will get accepted into the magnet school.  Time will tell.

I see good and bad in common core logic and have helped my daughter with some of her math problems and laughed and was puzzled all at the same time.  I still think that getting the correct answer (with work shown) is the most important thing.

Edited November 2, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[Lihu]

38 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

I grew up in Las Vegas, one of the worst public school districts in the nation.  This is more to do with the fact that Las Vegas is a very transient town.  What I will say is this:  I was a very average if not below average school from K-12th grade.  I went to a catholic school, my high school alma mater is Bishop Gorman High School (right now the #1 nationally ranked high school football team- Go Gaels!), and here are my observations:

My classes were hard.  I also found out especially later that I did not excel in classes that did not interest me.  Public school kids in high school literally got points just for showing up to class.  One of my friends was kicked out of our high school, went to a different one and overnight he became an honor roll student whereas before he was a c/d/f student.  

When I got to college (UNLV), I was amazed at how far ahead of these other students I was (many of them were from the Las Vegas area as well and of course from other areas of the country).  Here I was a very average student in high school and barely made it into UNLV but if I had gone to a public school in Clark County who knows what my options would have been.  Kids literally were struggling with concepts and problems they should have learned their sophmore year in high school.  My first two years were core classes and I scored better in them than I did in high school and then my final years were all finance, accounting, statistics classes and I blew it out of the water.  I was the guy that everyone hated in the finance classes or came too for help (that blew my mind).  Not trying to brag at all (mega humblebrag huh?), the point is, private school in an average or below average public school district is definitely the way to go, it is money well spent.  I have thanked my parents countless times for sacrificing for me and my sisters and sending us to private school instead of the public schools in Las Vegas.

If you can afford it and you are not in a good public school district definitely go the private school route.  I thank my parents every day that they did that for me.  This isn't to say public schools didn't have lots of smart kids, they did, but it just seems they get a little better teaching and care and that the expectations are higher.

Fortunately we are in a very good school district and the teachers care where my daughter (10 in December) is at.  So long as that is the case we will save the money for my golf lessons and all things golfing related (kidding), but if it changes we will put her in private school.  Middle school she has a chance to go to a magnet school that is good, the middle school we hear is average, not bad but not great so we are on the fence at this point and hope she will get accepted into the magnet school.  Time will tell.

I see good and bad in common core logic and have helped my daughter with some of her math problems and laughed and was puzzled all at the same time.  I still think that getting the correct answer (with work shown) is the most important thing.

 

Although there is some bias in the quote I am about to make, the admissions officer offered my son a scholarship and stated that "Even the worst private school is now better than the top public schools." He made an offer my son couldn't refuse. So, we chose this route.

Smart kids will blossom wherever they are, the environment pretty much helps them decide what they do with themselves.

thats only the top 2%.

[saevel25]

 

8 minutes ago, Lihu said:

"Even the worst private school is now better than the top public schools." He made an offer my son couldn't refuse. So, we chose this route.

Not sure I agree with that. 

12 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Smart kids will blossom wherever they are, the environment pretty much helps them decide what they do with themselves.

Not sure I agree with this as well. Environments can have a huge impact on development. I am not a big supporter of affirmative action, but there are cases were very bright minority students just do not blossom because of the environment they live in. 
 

[newtogolf]

I'm old (50) when we had tests on multiplication, it was a memory test as we were required to memorize the multiplication tables up to 15x15.  We would take these tests with no scratch paper and if there was anything on the paper but our answer we'd lose points.

To this day I can do math in my head much faster than either of my kids who are both honor students taking AP math classes starting in 10th grade.  Seems something was lost when they abandoned the old school teaching methods.

The article @iacas posted is well written and provides the basis for the difference between equality and equivalence, especially how it relates to computer programming but I highly doubt that the teacher that graded the test understood this or communicated it to the student.

[ZappyAd]

42 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

The article @iacas posted is well written and provides the basis for the difference between equality and equivalence, especially how it relates to computer programming but I highly doubt that the teacher that graded the test understood this or communicated it to the student.

I think the kid got the answer right.  There is already a problem with multiplication tables that people 'forget' about the commutative property of multiplication - I saw a study for the errors in answers for tables up to 12 and it wasn't symmetrical i.e. people get the answer to 8x7 wrong more often than they do the answer to 7x8.  No need to confuse things even more by marking someone wrong for getting it right!

And reading the article I don't think it matters if the teacher hasn't explicitly got to teaching the commutative property of multiplication yet.  If the kid has figured it out themselves (either implicitly by just getting it or because someone else taught them) then it is the right answer.  Are you really only allowed to know what your teacher has explicitly told you!?

As a computer programmer with a Math degree I don't think the equality or equivalence argument is even relevant.  Unless the questions gets a lot more specific about exactly how the answer should be written out then 5+5+5 is as valid as 3+3+3+3+3.