Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
CartShedCop

This Par 5 Gives Me Fits... I Have A Real Problem With The Design / Layout

16 posts in this topic

Ok, I am going to TRY and be as clear and brief as I can with this New Thread. Here it goes... So there is a hole on one of my local tracks (Semi Private) that just doesn't see eye to eye with me. Yesterday, like many other days, I approached this hole at 1-over on the back. It's the 16th hole so I'm heading in with good number for me and my current game. Here is my beef with the hole's layout and design: It's a Par 5. It travels REALLY down, then REALLY back up. From the Blue Tees (One up from Championship Tees) you have the following to deal with and compute off the tee: At the end of the right hand side of the FW, you have 270yds before 100yds of waste and unplayable natural area; On the left you have 285. Also on the right hand side, between the FW and the deep woods, there is a trap that resides 208 through 240 yards. The 100yds of waste area is the low point of the hole and thus begins the steep grade back up. The green is not in view from the bottom of the fairway, nor can you see it until you get inside of 150yds. So, there is SOME idea of what you are faced with. For me, it's NOT a driver hole... at all. Baby it and i'll peel one into the soft-sanded fairway bunker on the right. Overcook a "bunt" and I roll into "the mess." Swing away and I'm deeper into said mess. Now I know, I know... hit 3W, hit a hybrid, hell - hit an iron. Well, 3W puts me in danger of reaching the tall stuff, and an iron makes for a difficult downhill-lie second shot over aforementioned mess with still the possibility of a blind 200yd third shot. That being said, I normall hit an easy 3 or 4 hybrid (wind-based) and try to roll out to the 285yd left side. Note - your tee shot is onto a drastically sloped fairway and the ground is always hard and fast. After ALL of that (I tried to post a picture, sorry!!), what are YOUR thoughts/feelings on a Par 5 design that takes driver out of play for even moderately long recreational golfers, only to then have an uphill, blind second shot, that either requires a downhill or uphill lie or 100yards of tall nasty unplayable waste area? I just feel like a par 5 that has no reward or opportunity for a good long tee ball is kind of "wrong." I like risk/reward holes. They seem to test your judgement and decision making. I understand the need and mentallity for the "Just take your par, and move along" holes, but if a premium is going to be placed on the tee ball, should there not be a rewarding "Green light" area? Maybe it's personal for me. Maybe I've carded too many doubles and bogeys here; not enough pars and only a handful of birdies over 5+ years of playing this course. Or maybe, just maybe... it's because it's one of the four closing holes that I can not hit driver!!! Yeah, that MIGHT have something to do with it...
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

I don't like par 5's that take driver out of your hand either. That said, sometimes you just have to take your medicine. Lay up, make a 5 or no worse than 6 and don't let one crap hole ruin your round.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

On some holes, par is a good score.  Sounds like this may be one of them.

Sounds like your doubles might come from trying to make it into something that it's not, i.e., a reachable par-5.  Accept the fact that you're not going to be hitting this green and with a good wedge, you're still putting for birdie.

FWIW, it sounds like a pretty good hole to me.  Maybe it's because I'm not a terribly long hitter, but I don't have much expectation of reaching any but the shortest par-5's, and those tend to be pretty wimpy little holes.  I like a par-5 with some teeth.  It keeps shorter hitters like m in the game! ;-)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

You could just tell us the name of the course and someone else could post a picture (with some measurements).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

That's a solid idea... give everyone a glimpse at what I speak of. It's #16 at The Preserve At Jordan Lake. It's a wonderful course that is challenging to all level of player. There's talk of redoing the hole, specifically the waste area. Apparently I'm not alone in regards to the landing area in relation to the second shot and the lie you are normally faced with when forced to hit hybrid or iron.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looks fine to me. You'd have to hit a 305 yard shot to hit through the fairway, looks like the native area is beyond that. For most that's not a layup. I don't look at 574 yard par 5's as birdie opportunities often. The instance of two putt birdies probably rare on this hole. A 3w and long iron should get you inside 100 yards. I wouldn't feel there is lost opportunity on this hole and I've seen worse designs. This seems pretty straightforward.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Is this the hole? I drew a line 300 yards long. It's about 300 yards from there to the middle of the green.

Looks like a 3W (because it's downhill) to hybrid (if it's really firm), hybrid/3W second shot, and then a pitch to a 3/4 wedge of some kind.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Yep. That's the beast that haunts my hopes and dreams of breaking 80 on/at this course on a regular basis. Ha! I guess I need to clarify a few things: First - the slope from tee(s) to landing area is rather severe; so much so that one can not see the "ideal" landing area from the tee box. This is the reason that for even a "kind of long hitter" like myself, even a 3w - especially this time of year, is a risk. (I say "kind of long hitter" in that while no, I'm not Mr. 300 everytime, I do get a good poke out there consistently, 265-275. Hey, you gotta find some use for 240lbs.) Secondly, even at the end of the first fairway, it still slopes downhill enough to where you feel it (the slope) as you stand over your second shot. Thirdly, the second fairway - post "mess", is so uphill and above your head that it's very daunting as well. It seems to have a way of making all level of golfer want to pull their head up in an attempt to "help the ball get up." I guess I should say this: I give the designers full credit for not only this hole, but the entire course. I should've been more clear in my original post. It was meant to be part informal poll question/roundtable in regards to holes, specifically Par 5s, that seem to be almost unfair based upon the shots you are "forced" to hit to have even a modicum of a chance at par or better. The other part that I hoped this thread would shed light on is how this hole in particular really highlights the shortcomings of my current game. Is some of this hole "mental" for me? Oh heck yes. I'll admit that. I am not sure with my 3w off the tee and for some reason I feel the need to overswing a hybrid on this tee. Please do not think that I am blaming the design of the hole as my sole reason for "blowing up" every 3 out of 5 times I play this Kracken. While I do not care for the two tedious shots required (for me anyway) to put a SW in my hand, I take my own share of blame when it comes to all of the 6s and 7s I've angrily scribbled on the card. So to sum up, and hopefully spark a bit of conversation, in combination with design and hauntings of doubles past - this hole has my number... and I'm tired of feeling like its "booty call!"
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tough hole to make a 4 on. I'd forget about hitting a sand wedge in; hit a pair of hybrids to short iron distance or so and try and hit somewhere on the green. Then get up and down or 2 putt if possible and make a 5. If you have trouble hitting the fairway then that's the simplest option. Hitting the green in regulation solves all par 5 problems.

That said, I don't see anything here that prevents a driver, it's just a little tight. A 7i out of the rough doesn't scare me, and I'm probably taking 3 anyway to get there, so I'd rather hit it somewhere past the right fairway bunker if possible. We have 2 soul crushing par 5s on my course as well so I feel your pain.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Right of, and long of that trap is a very sharp drop-off into a heavily wooded (boar sighted in there twice) stand of trees and brush. You need climbing gear. This photo appears to have been taken during the fall or winter. That natural area in season is thick with 3 to 4 feet tall brush and greenery. Also, the course's natural areas are posted as "protected natural habitats" and as such, you are not permitted to venture into or play out of. Barring a decent head wind AND damp conditions, anyone who drives the ball at/near 250 is S.O.L. Trust me. Many a golfer has stood up there, hit the big stick and thought - Man, I normally don't hit it 280! That fairway is a springboard dead-downhill. After yesterday's round I vowed to spend some time during each range session hitting a dozen or so shots from varying lies that I can find just off of the normal hitting areas - people and space permitting, of course. I am a range rat. I could hit balls all day every day, time permitting. Holes like this SHOULD serve as a reminder to me that the Golf World is not flat and as such, I need to practice imperfect lies and stances if I want to get the most out of my practice time.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I get a demon hole like this I started by playing it backwards.  Where is my best shot.  For me it's 100 yards.  Deadly from there most days.  Next I figure out the best way to get there and play that.  If I miss one of the previous shots I take my medicine and still try to get to 100 yards. Accept a bogey and get to a hole that likes me better.  I just try really hard not to post the big number on my most hated holes.

YMMV

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

When I get a demon hole like this I started by playing it backwards.  Where is my best shot.  For me it's 100 yards.  Deadly from there most days.

Long story short: I highly doubt you're better from 100 yards than you are from 20 yards. Or 30 yards. Or 40 yards.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Ok, I am going to TRY and be as clear and brief as I can with this New Thread. Here it goes...

So there is a hole on one of my local tracks (Semi Private) that just doesn't see eye to eye with me. Yesterday, like many other days, I approached this hole at 1-over on the back. It's the 16th hole so I'm heading in with good number for me and my current game. Here is my beef with the hole's layout and design:

It's a Par 5. It travels REALLY down, then REALLY back up. From the Blue Tees (One up from Championship Tees) you have the following to deal with and compute off the tee: At the end of the right hand side of the FW, you have 270yds before 100yds of waste and unplayable natural area; On the left you have 285. Also on the right hand side, between the FW and the deep woods, there is a trap that resides 208 through 240 yards.

The 100yds of waste area is the low point of the hole and thus begins the steep grade back up.

The green is not in view from the bottom of the fairway, nor can you see it until you get inside of 150yds.

So, there is SOME idea of what you are faced with. For me, it's NOT a driver hole... at all. Baby it and i'll peel one into the soft-sanded fairway bunker on the right. Overcook a "bunt" and I roll into "the mess." Swing away and I'm deeper into said mess.

Now I know, I know... hit 3W, hit a hybrid, hell - hit an iron. Well, 3W puts me in danger of reaching the tall stuff, and an iron makes for a difficult downhill-lie second shot over aforementioned mess with still the possibility of a blind 200yd third shot. That being said, I normall hit an easy 3 or 4 hybrid (wind-based) and try to roll out to the 285yd left side. Note - your tee shot is onto a drastically sloped fairway and the ground is always hard and fast.

After ALL of that (I tried to post a picture, sorry!!), what are YOUR thoughts/feelings on a Par 5 design that takes driver out of play for even moderately long recreational golfers, only to then have an uphill, blind second shot, that either requires a downhill or uphill lie or 100yards of tall nasty unplayable waste area?

I just feel like a par 5 that has no reward or opportunity for a good long tee ball is kind of "wrong." I like risk/reward holes. They seem to test your judgement and decision making. I understand the need and mentallity for the "Just take your par, and move along" holes, but if a premium is going to be placed on the tee ball, should there not be a rewarding "Green light" area?

Maybe it's personal for me. Maybe I've carded too many doubles and bogeys here; not enough pars and only a handful of birdies over 5+ years of playing this course. Or maybe, just maybe... it's because it's one of the four closing holes that I can not hit driver!!! Yeah, that MIGHT have something to do with it...

Funny ... this description is very similar to one of my least favorite holes.  It's a 600 yard par 5 with hazards along both sides and a ravine that chops off the fairway at about 260 through 320 from the tee.  It's also downhill to the ravine and then uphill from there.  I usually hit hybrid off the tee (last time that still put me through the end of the fairway, in the rough short of the ravine but with a steep downhill lie), hybrid, or maybe 3 wood again, and then a wedge or 9 iron.  I just suck on that hole, so I feel your pain. :)  (I couldn't tell you where, but I remember that I have complained about this hole before on here somewhere ;))

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

CartShed,

Sounds like No. 16 is your beehive hole - you step up on the tee, and your mind starts buzzin' with all the things that can go wrong. This hurts all your shots.

Do what the others have suggested - hit a 3W off the tee, and get your second shot over the junk and into the fairway for final approach. Play one shot at a time.

My beehive hole is No. 15, also an uphill par 5. If I hit back-to-back hybrids and a 7-iron, I can usually get par or a bogie. If I try a driver, it can be.. really high.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Looks like an interesting hole. I don't go for a lot of par 5's in two unless it is really open. They are designed to gooble up balls.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the Par 5 18th at Deercreek where I was a member. So much risk reward with the pond right in front of the elevated green. I've made 6 eagles and a few birdies on this hole. Even two putted my way to a career low 72 on this course. Now to get to your post about a tough hole....here lies the 480 par 4 4th hole. Soggy fairway most of the time. OB left of the green and a lake to the right. Trees on the left force you to drive right of the hole usually leaving you with some sort of angle over the lake. Huge greekside bunkers and if you miss right of the hole it's slopped so steep your ball goes.into the lake. A par or bogey on this hole is a great score, heck, par skins usually hold up here. Birdies are cash for sure.
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • Some stats on the U.S. squad and potential picks:   SG-Tee SG-Appr SG-ARG SG-Putt SG-Total Drive Dist Birdies Bogeys Bird/Bog Dustin Johnson 1.077 0.489 0.073 0.272 0.548 314.4 4.37 2.67 1.70 Phil Mickelson 0.085 0.703 0.244 0.786 0.471 294.5 4.06 2.48 1.68 Jordan Spieth 0.465 0.217 0.391 0.710 0.403 295.5 4.28 2.67 1.63 Brooks Koepka 0.595 0.224 -0.014 0.483 0.336 303.0 4.15 3.08 1.39 Jimmy Walker -0.127 0.561 0.305 0.253 0.272 300.1 3.79 3.19 1.22 Patrick Reed 0.246 0.229 0.436 0.195 0.261 297.0 3.78 2.61 1.50 Brandt Snedeker 0.119 0.185 0.324 0.351 0.219 292.5 3.83 2.74 1.42 Zach Johnson -0.257 0.291 0.315 0.388 0.159 280.0 3.69 2.88 1.30 AVERAGE 0.275 0.362 0.259 0.430 0.334 297.1 3.99 2.79 1.48                     Rickie Fowler 0.619 0.366 0.432 0.255 0.427 301.3 3.72 2.33 1.64 Bubba Watson 0.941 0.504 -0.018 -0.177 0.420 310.2 3.80 3.09 1.28 Matt Kuchar 0.371 0.352 0.252 0.475 0.363 285.9 3.87 2.65 1.48 Gary Woodland 0.498 0.549 0.042 -0.049 0.346 307.2 3.61 2.59 1.44 Billy Horschel 0.460 0.481 -0.038 0.085 0.321 293.0 3.67 3.17 1.18 Daniel Berger 0.322 0.480 -0.082 0.253 0.305 298.8 3.83 2.79 1.39 Jason Dufner 0.305 0.557 0.097 -0.354 0.249 292.5 3.84 2.99 1.31 Brendan Steele 0.581 0.363 -0.136 -0.172 0.248 302.1 3.58 2.84 1.30 Ryan Moore -0.021 0.374 0.259 0.373 0.245 282.5 3.70 2.78 1.35 Ryan Palmer 0.631 0.192 -0.063 -0.048 0.231 304.4 3.87 3.05 1.32 Justin Thomas 0.048 0.597 -0.027 -0.223 0.196 301.0 3.72 3.14 1.22 Kevin Kisner 0.391 0.013 -0.307 0.657 0.184 289.0 3.82 3.01 1.31 Jim Furyk -0.251 0.479 0.239 0.159 0.179 281.8 3.17 2.85 1.14   I think Fowler should be a lock. His total strokes gained is above the current squad average, solid ballstriking and pop, the third best birdie/bogie ratio, and he has a balanced game that should make him easy to pair with. Bubba's still crazy strong off the tee and on approach, but his short game & putting seem to have slipped this year. Probably a stronger option for better ball / fourball or maybe with the right partner in alternate shot / foursomes. His length is likely to be an advantage at Hazeltine if he isn't put up against one of the top Euro players with better all-around games in singles. Woodland, Horschel, or Steele, might be interesting options for better ball. Kuch has a solid overall game. is very consistent, and is stronger off the tee than Zach Johnson to boot so he could add to the squad - particularly in alternate shot. I wonder with Mickelson, Walker, Snedeker, and Johnson already on board if they don't need to be more plus on the driving though.
    • Sad. But, like the title of the old George Harrison album, All Things Must Pass. One night my brother and I were having dinner with our Mom. Somehow the subject of movies was raised, and Blazing Saddles and Young Frankenstein came up. We discovered that our Mom had never seen either film. So plans were made for a couple of "Movie Nights with Mom". My bro provided the DVD's, and we provided the food. My Mom being in her early 80's at the time, we weren't sure how she'd react to the films. I'm delighted to report that she howled with laughter. Mom always did have an active and acute sense of humor. She thanked us for showing her two of the funniest movies she had ever seen! RIP Gene Wilder.
    • For those who don't know, for my actual "job," I am a professional photographer. I recently picked up a few putters from a now out-of-business company called PLOP, and they are just gorgeous putters, so I had to photograph them and I wanted to share. I was looking for a center shafted putter, as it was what I was fit into. Unfortunately I can't stand the look of center shafted putters so every one I've ever tried was just not an option. That is, until I found an old (what would be original version) of a putter my grandfather had in his bag called a PLOP. I looked up this particular brand and found that it was no longer in business, but best of all, the owner/inventor of the putter made what he calls a CSH putter, that is Center shafted hosel, but the hosel is "floated" through the heel end of the putter, still welded and attached to the center. Even better, he was selling the rest of what he had milled on Ebay, including a few special putters. So I get to look down at what is a blade style, while still having my center shafted putter. It was a downright bargain for a milled putter, too.  I have in photography what we call GAS (Gear Acquisition Syndrome), and sadly it translates to golf, too. I ended up buying 3 putters. One is a very wonderful black PVD finish, and the other is a nickel PVD finish that was tour-stamped, both very limited editions. I will do my best to photograph these and upload at some point, too.  In any case, I wanted to share a few of the images here. Unfortunately I can't upload the full size quality files but hopefully everyone enjoys a few of these. On a side note, golf clubs are actually extremely fun photographic subjects.  (Wasn't sure if this would fall under "clubs," but I thought it was more of a golf story/tidbit with the pictures. When I find the time to sit down and create a blog, I can put them there.) Feedback welcome, of course.   -Andrew.
    • I was about to ask what the birdie conversion rate was at the Barclays, to you know, get back on topic !
    • I have also experienced that. For whatever reason I excel at wedges in the sim. Its my full swings that dont register. I hit it hard enough for it to be loud and for the ball to hit middle of the screen but it either doesnt register or it comes back with something like dead straight but 98 yards. I had demoed a 3 hybrid and got that particular distance. I hit my 56 degree wedge that far. I often have near the same experience at the range. Only place I can hit a golf shot is on the golf course. It's ridiculous!! I mean come on, Im there, Im the one its happening to, Im present to witness it. It defies all logic!!!!! Has anyone else ever experienced such lop sided madness?!
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. OR Cat
      OR Cat
      (55 years old)
  • Blog Entries