Jump to content
Check out the Spin Axis Podcast! ×
IGNORED

A Rules Question about Missing Tee Markers


Note: This thread is 4139 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

  • Administrator
Posted

It can be equalized by being 90 yards long the next day, but do courses really keep track of such settings?  I doubt it very much.

No, because they don't have to: if they stick to the proper tee boxes, they'll equalize themselves. Plus the odds of a course being five yards short on EVERY hole is basically nil. Again, so long as they stick to the proper tee boxes. Keeping records would be busywork.

It can be equalized by being 90 yards long the next day, but do courses really keep track of such settings?  I doubt it very much.  It's very frustrating when the white tees (example only) are consistently set up short, often in a foolhardy attempt to improve pace of play (people are responsible for slow play, course set up won't improve it to any great extent).

It's OT, but I disagree that yardage can't help slow play. It too has to be more extreme than five yards to make a difference, though, so maybe that's what you're saying: a few yards won't matter.

Those who play this shortened course consistently then end up with lower indexes than their capability and complain when players from other courses consistently whup them in net events.  For handicap indexes to truly reflect the player's capability, the courses must be set up to average the rated length over a relatively short period of time (maybe every week).

Shoot 84 and your index is off by about 0.3 if you play a course with about a 139 slope that's 90 yards short of its rated yardage. It's still not a very big difference. :-)

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

No, because they don't have to: if they stick to the proper tee boxes, they'll equalize themselves. Plus the odds of a course being five yards short on EVERY hole is basically nil. Again, so long as they stick to the proper tee boxes. Keeping records would be busywork.

It's OT, but I disagree that yardage can't help slow play. It too has to be more extreme than five yards to make a difference, though, so maybe that's what you're saying: a few yards won't matter.

Shoot 84 and your index is off by about 0.3 if you play a course with about a 139 slope that's 90 yards short of its rated yardage. It's still not a very big difference.


I've stated my opinions, and am happy to continue with them.  If you consider that a difference of 0.3 in course rating isn't significant, why doesn't the USGA just give ratings to the nearest 0.5, ie, never have a course rating other than 69.5, 70.0, 70.5 etc?  Maybe they do the number to the nearest tenth of a stroke because they consider a tenth to be significant?


  • Administrator
Posted
I've stated my opinions, and am happy to continue with them.

As have I, and as am I.

If you consider that a difference of 0.3 in course rating isn't significant, why doesn't the USGA just give ratings to the nearest 0.5, ie, never have a course rating other than 69.5, 70.0, 70.5 etc?  Maybe they do the number to the nearest tenth of a stroke because they consider a tenth to be significant?

Those aren't equivalent situations.

They go to the nearest tenth because that's what the place holder is for. But their definition of what's significant and what I call significant are different.

If you're owed $12.22 in change and you get $12.25 back because it's easier on the waitress to give you a quarter, do you consider that change to be significant? Unlikely. But to say that we should just round everything to dimes because of that is not the same.

And… Here's the beauty of this all: you get to keep your opinion, and I get to keep mine! And it's all good, and golf still exists and is enjoyed by millions!

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

As have I, and as am I.

Those aren't equivalent situations.

They go to the nearest tenth because that's what the place holder is for. But their definition of what's significant and what I call significant are different.

If you're owed $12.22 in change and you get $12.25 back because it's easier on the waitress to give you a quarter, do you consider that change to be significant? Unlikely. But to say that we should just round everything to dimes because of that is not the same.

And… Here's the beauty of this all: you get to keep your opinion, and I get to keep mine! And it's all good, and golf still exists and is enjoyed by millions!


This isn't nickel and dime stuff!  I was always taught that two things not the same are different - and that's the case here - handicaps and course ratings are not the same as nickels and dimes.  There's a lot more significance to handicaps than a three cent difference in change.  I'm old enough to remember when getting change from a nickel was significant - nobody would ever round $0.03 up to $0.05 when I was growing up.  I will stay with the USGA perspective, tenths of stroke ratings are important.


  • Administrator
Posted
[QUOTE name="rogolf" url="/t/76757/a-nit-picking-rules-question/18#post_1046100"]   This isn't nickel and dime stuff!  I was always taught that two things not the same are different [/QUOTE] I didn't say they were the same or "not different." I said the change was small. Let's stick to the topic, eh?
  • Upvote 1

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

tenths of stroke ratings are important.

But they are spurious accuracy.

Put 5 rating teams on a course and you'll get at least two ratings which vary by more than 0.1


  • Administrator
Posted

But they are spurious accuracy.

Put 5 rating teams on a course and you'll get at least two ratings which vary by more than 0.1

Still not the topic here.

There is probably enough interest (though perhaps only amongst a few people) to have a separate ratings discussion thread.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Still not the topic here.

There is probably enough interest (though perhaps only amongst a few people) to have a separate ratings discussion thread.

Yes please!

In David's bag....

Driver: Titleist 910 D-3;  9.5* Diamana Kai'li
3-Wood: Titleist 910F;  15* Diamana Kai'li
Hybrids: Titleist 910H 19* and 21* Diamana Kai'li
Irons: Titleist 695cb 5-Pw

Wedges: Scratch 51-11 TNC grind, Vokey SM-5's;  56-14 F grind and 60-11 K grind
Putter: Scotty Cameron Kombi S
Ball: ProV1

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

Yes please!

I agree, as now that I am retired it is something I might look into as a volunteer activity.

But then again, what the hell do I know?

Rich - in name only

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

@rogolf & @iacas & @Rulesman

Thanks to each of you for making very valid statements in regards to the effects which determine a course rating by course setup.

However, a point which I was attempting to describe is "creating a level playing field" in events which have players at different tee boxes.

My beef is on several occasions, a player at the back (Black Tees) and forward (White Tees) the markers would be several yards in front of the stones (near front sections of tee boxes)

and the middle (Blue Tees) would be located at the back of the box, several yards behind the stone marker.

On just a single hole, it's not a big deal. But when this occurred with four or more holes, then one needs to address the situation.

This seems to occur fairly often at our course, enough to inquire if would give an advantage or a disadvantages to players?

I have always felt in any event, everyone should play at the same tees boxes and allow seniors to play forward tees.

Sorry to get OT and thanks for the many viewpoints about tee placement.

Club Rat

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

@rogolf & @iacas & @Rulesman

Thanks to each of you for making very valid statements in regards to the effects which determine a course rating by course setup.

However, a point which I was attempting to describe is "creating a level playing field" in events which have players at different tee boxes.

My beef is on several occasions, a player at the back (Black Tees) and forward (White Tees) the markers would be several yards in front of the stones (near front sections of tee boxes)

and the middle (Blue Tees) would be located at the back of the box, several yards behind the stone marker.

On just a single hole, it's not a big deal. But when this occurred with four or more holes, then one needs to address the situation.

This seems to occur fairly often at our course, enough to inquire if would give an advantage or a disadvantages to players?

I have always felt in any event, everyone should play at the same tees boxes and allow seniors to play forward tees.

Sorry to get OT and thanks for the many viewpoints about tee placement.

Club Rat


I agree that could be an issue.  In such a competition, it would be very worthwhile to ensure that all of the tee markers are placed at their respective stone markers or within a couple paces thereof.  Imo, tournament set ups should not be left to the greens crew unless they have been provided specific instructions by the Committee.  Anything that goes wrong is the fault of the organizing Committee, not the greens crew.


  • Administrator
Posted

I agree that could be an issue.  In such a competition, it would be very worthwhile to ensure that all of the tee markers are placed at their respective stone markers or within a couple paces thereof.  Imo, tournament set ups should not be left to the greens crew unless they have been provided specific instructions by the Committee.  Anything that goes wrong is the fault of the organizing Committee, not the greens crew.

Yep. The head pro should be in charge of both hole locations and tee marker locations.

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

The Pro's usually dot the greens for pin placements and hands out pin sheets on each day of our club events.

But very rarely do they indicate tee placements or course setup.

Tee's are generally rotated or moved every other day, sometimes only from side to side.

I play almost everyday and the tees may move a foot or two. The assistant green keeper sets the tee locations when they are moved.

When the club hosts District or USGA events, they set pins and tees.

Rarely will they ask for rough length or green speed to any specs.

Our course is a Nicklaus Championship course which plays to tournament conditions pretty much everyday, which is a real treat.

We have the best back pin positions in comparison to other courses in the area.

I feel tee locations are never considered as an intricate part of the days event.

When in fact, they could change the difficultly of every hole with wind conditions or when the course is played after heavy rains.

Club Rat

Johnny Rocket - Let's Rock and Roll and play some golf !!!

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Posted

The Pro's usually dot the greens for pin placements and hands out pin sheets on each day of our club events.

But very rarely do they indicate tee placements or course setup.

Tee's are generally rotated or moved every other day, sometimes only from side to side.

I play almost everyday and the tees may move a foot or two. The assistant green keeper sets the tee locations when they are moved.

When the club hosts District or USGA events, they set pins and tees.

Rarely will they ask for rough length or green speed to any specs.

Our course is a Nicklaus Championship course which plays to tournament conditions pretty much everyday, which is a real treat.

We have the best back pin positions in comparison to other courses in the area.

I feel tee locations are never considered as an intricate part of the days event.

When in fact, they could change the difficultly of every hole with wind conditions or when the course is played after heavy rains.

Club Rat

When I'm doing set up, which includes both hole location and tee location, I'm very aware of where the tees are set with respect to hole location.  It may not make much difference on a very long par five, but it certainly does on shorter par fours and always on par threes.  If I set up a potentially drivable par 4, I will always make it a very tough hole location - typically short and just over a bunker or near a drop off (if you really want to drive low handicappers nuts, put out 18 short hole locations).  On other holes, I'll always try to find a way to hide the bottom of the flag stick.  It's fun trying to tease the players.  However, in the final analysis, the hole locations need to be balanced between left and right (to me, a center hole location is "neutral"), but there is no need to balance front, center and back.


Note: This thread is 4139 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    PlayBetter
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FitForGolf
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-20%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack/FitForGolf, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope. 15% off TourStriker (no code).
  • Posts

    • Day 1: 2025.12.26 Worked on LH position on grip, trying to keep fingers closer to perpendicular to the club. Feels awkward but change is meant to.
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • Please see this topic for updated information:
    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. The solid lines I've positioned at the top of the backswing (GEARS aligns both swings at impact, the dashed line). Address is to the right, of course, and the graph shows knee flex from the two swings above. The data (17.56° and 23.20°) shows where this player is in both swings (orange being the yellow iron swing, pink the blue driver swing). You can see that this golfer extends his trail knee 2-3°… before bending it even more than that through the late backswing and early downswing. Months ago I created a quick Instagram video showing the trail knee flex in the backswing of several players (see the top for the larger number): Erik J. Barzeski (@iacas) • Instagram reel GEARS shares expert advice on golf swing technique, focusing on the critical backswing phase. Tour winners and major champions reveal the key to a precise and powerful swing, highlighting the importance of... Here are a few more graphs. Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. This prevents the trail side from gaining depth, as is needed to keep the pelvis center from thrusting toward the ball. Most of the "early extension" (thrust) that I see occurs during the backswing. Encourages Early Extension (Thrust) Patterns When you've thrust and turned around the trail hip joint in the backswing, you often thrust a bit more in the downswing as the direction your pelvis is oriented is forward and "out" (to the right for a righty). Your trail leg can abduct to push you forward, but "forward" when your pelvis is turned like that is in the "thrust" direction. Additionally, the trail knee "breaking" again at the start of the downswing often jumps the trail hip out toward the ball a bit too much or too quickly. While the trail hip does move in that direction, if it's too fast or too much, it can prevent the lead side hip from getting "back" at the right rate, or at a rate commensurate with the trail hip to keep the pelvis center from thrusting. Disrupts the Pressure Shift/Transition When the trail leg extends too much, it often can't "push" forward normally. The forward push begins much earlier than forward motion begins — pushing forward begins as early as about P1.5 to P2 in the swings of most good golfers. It can push forward by abducting, again, but that's a weaker movement that shoves the pelvis forward (toward the target) and turns it more than it generally should (see the next point). Limits Internal Rotation of the Trail Hip Internal rotation of the trail hip is a sort of "limiter" on the backswing. I have seen many golfers on GEARS whose trail knee extends, whose pelvis shifts forward (toward the target), and who turn over 50°, 60°, and rarely but not never, over 70° in the backswing. If you turn 60° in the backswing, it's going to be almost impossible to get "open enough" in the downswing to arrive at a good impact position. Swaying/Lateral Motion Occasionally a golfer who extends the trail knee too much will shift back too far, but more often the issue is that the golfer will shift forward too early in the backswing (sometimes even immediately to begin the backswing), leaving them "stuck forward" to begin the downswing. They'll push forward, stop, and have to restart around P4, disrupting the smooth sequence often seen in the game's best players. Other Bits… Reduces ground reaction force potential, compromises spine inclination and posture, makes transition sequencing harder, increases stress on the trail knee and lower back… In short… It's not athletic. We don't do many athletic things with "straight" or very extended legs (unless it's the end of the action, like a jump or a big push off like a step in a running motion).
    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.