My Swing (FireDragon76)

[iacas]

@FireDragon76 , I'll try to be brief, but I'd like a response if possible.

As I said above, 5SK® is about the commonalities of the game's best players. Whether it's Moe Norman or Jim Furyk, they still all do those things. It's not "one swing" or "one way to swing."

In other words, whether you do a Jim Hardy One Plane Swing, a Stack and Tilt swing, a Kirk Junge swing, or whatever… the point of 5SK® is that if you're working on one of those five things, you'll get better at golf.

Your original swing had no Keys. Contact was poor. Your head moved all over, your shoulder turn was flat, you bent your arms oddly, the club traveled a poor path. Seriously, Keys #1-5 were missing.

The advice people gave you was to work on, basically, Key #1 stuff. You can apply whatever biomechanics you want (I assure you, btw, that we understand the biomechanics about as well as any other golf instructor, and far better than most), the point is you need to turn your shoulders on a steeper angle and turn them more.

Golfers, particularly beginners, often fall prey to the "you just need to do this!" type of "simple swing method" stuff. It's hocum. Golf is HARD. It's a difficult sport. Those "oh, you just have to swing like this!" videos attract people, but I've yet to meet someone who goes with one of these "alternative" swing methods and comes out happy in the end. There are some Moe people, I suppose, but they are often happiest to enjoy the journey of swinging like Moe, not necessarily playing the best golf they can play.

The 5SK® show real data about handicap improvement:

http://thesandtrap.com/t/67014/keys-vs-handicap-share-your-data

http://thesandtrap.com/t/64855/number-of-5sk-earned-vs-handicap/18#post_814930

And as I said above, you can "learn" and improve upon any type of swing method, and so long as it's geared towards working on and improving one of those Keys, you'll get better. It doesn't matter what specific method it is.

But please, be careful of the sales pitches out there about how "this swing can make golf easy!" They're lying to you. Golf is hard. It takes work and effort to do it, and you have a limited amount of both. Whatever method you choose, please make sure that what you're working on is one of the 5SK® (in the full swing of course), or else you're just wasting your time.

[saevel25]

But please, be careful of the sales pitches out there about how "this swing can make golf easy!" They're lying to you. Golf is hard. It takes work and effort to do it, and you have a limited amount of both. Whatever method you choose, please make sure that what you're working on is one of the 5SK® (in the full swing of course), or else you're just wasting your time.

That is the one thing that I liked from my time with Erik at Golf Evolution. They never sugar coat anything. It takes practice, time and patience. If you want real significant change in your golf swing for the better, then keep working on the 5SK. Actually putting in meaningful practicing in golf can be boring and a lot of work, but the end result is worth it if you love this game.

[Ernest Jones]

I spent time and money on Don Trahan's shtick, time and money I really wish I had back.

[FireDragon76]

I spent time and money on Don Trahan's shtick, time and money I really wish I had back.

What do you see as the disadvantages to his teaching methods/system?

[Ernest Jones]

What do you see as the disadvantages to his teaching methods/system?

Well, I'm not an instructor so I can only speak from my experience but:

Lack of depth on the backswing.

Armsy.

No power.

You will get much better, much faster by learning from the people on this site, both the owners and members can be a huge help with learning. Even if you choose to go with Trahan or someone like that you will still need to fix the issues that have been pointed out in this thread, starting with a good backswing that allows your head to remain relatively steady. As was mentioned above, regardless of the "method" you choose, you won't improve until you get some of the "keys" in place. The keys are universal to every good swing whether it be one-plane, two plane, or Furyk's infinity plane swing.

If I were you, I would practice making backswings with the thought of pointing your left (lead) shoulder AT the ball. This may make you too steep eventually but it will be a good starting point for getting yourself to turn on an incline instead of turning level and coming up and away from the ball. Record yourself doing this until you can do it while keeping your head in place.

[FireDragon76]

I've watched a video where Canadian instructor Ron Sisson swings all sorts of different ways.   There is one demo where he hits a golf ball using minimal lower body movement and still gets the ball out to around 90 percent of the length of a more body-driven swing.  It seems to me that all golf swings are inherently armsy to some extent.

The lack of depth on Don's backswing comes from his experiments with back pain.   Most doctors recommend limiting the backswing as well, particularly for any golfer dealing with a bad back.  After the reverse-C lumbar hyperflexion that is sometimes popular with certain players, the full rotational swing is responsible for much of the strain on the lower back in golf.  When Don limited his backswing, he found he didn't really lose any distance as a result, once he got used to the new swing, and this is the case for a lot of players as well.

The downward shoulder is part of the more conventional swing but its not really part of the Moe swing. Tilting the shoulder downward is all about getting past the elbow block, something that doesn't happen when you setup the club shaft on the same plane that strikes the ball.

[mmoan2]

After watching your video, I think you have enormous potential by using 5Sk. I would spend 15 minutes a day just focusing on keeping your head steady. You'll be amazed at how that one piece can bring together other elements of your body mechanics. If you have a serious back issue, perhaps a 3/4 swing will be enough for your body to handle, but that's ok. I'm not some covert salesman for the 5SK system, but I think the simplicity of it will benefit you greatly. The nuances of different swings, from what I've seen, are not what you need right now. You need fundamentals, such as less unnecessary body motion, more weight forward at impact, etc. Once you have "your" swing with the basics, you can experiment with S&T;, Moe Norman one-plane, etc.

[mvmac]

What do you see as the disadvantages to his teaching methods/system?

That he teaches a swing "style" and it doesn't identify your priority piece. This isn't just Don Trahan, this is anyone trying to sell you a method swing.

The downward shoulder is part of the more conventional swing but its not really part of the Moe swing. Tilting the shoulder downward is all about getting past the elbow block, something that doesn't happen when you setup the club shaft on the same plane that strikes the ball.

Dude, just look at his swing.

@FireDragon76 you don't seem to understand that turning the shoulder "steeper" (right angle to your address inclination) is MUCH better for your back than what you're doing now. You can obviously do whatever you want but you're not going to see improvement searching for some perfect swing method.

[Ernest Jones]

Dude, seriously, I don't want to be a dick, but c'mon man. You have been given a ton of FREE advice from some very (make that extremely) knowledgable people but you still seem to think you know better. Don Trahan is a joke, but you're not even doing his swing, which would be better than what your doing now. You HAVE TO TURN ON AN INCLINED PLANE. PERIOD.

Either get your head around that or continue doing this:

We are all a pretty generous group when it come to helping people learn this wonderful game, but you're starting to wear us down...

Stop trying to debate the swing from a position of complete ignorance and listen to the amazing (and free) advice that has been offered.

I mean, TABERNAC, do you not see the issue here????

I don't think you fully realize how good Mike and Erik are at what they do. These are two of the best instructors IN THE WORLD. They teach guys (and girls) who are on professional tours FFS.

But, hey, if you know best...please keep posting your progress, I'd love to see how it all works out for you.

[FireDragon76]

This video was from a few weeks before the last one I posted.  I remember in this one I was much more consciously trying to do a Moe Norman swing.  My body isn't moving quite right but I still remember the shots being fairly straight, which at the time I considered amazing.   After studying this video more closely I'm considering the possibility that the tempo of my backswing is too fast?

I would have posted more videos earlier but video editing is not my thing so there is a learning curve.  The camera is wobbly and moving around weird but its coming from my wife's tablet and she's legally blind.   If I get serious enough about this I'll carry my tripod and camera down to the driving range, I suppose.

[Phil McGleno]

Did you see EJs post above?-You didnt respond to it[quote name="FireDragon76" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/18#post_1076241"] This video was from a few weeks before the last one I posted.  I remember in this one I was much more consciously trying to do a Moe Norman swing.  My body isn't moving quite right but I still remember the shots being fairly straight, which at the time I considered amazing.   After studying this video more closely I'm considering the possibility that the tempo of my backswing is too fast?    I would have posted more videos earlier but video editing is not my thing so there is a learning curve.  The camera is wobbly and moving around weird but its coming from my wife's tablet and she's legally blind.   If I get serious enough about this I'll carry my tripod and camera down to the driving range, I suppose. [/quote] HEre is my advice for you.-I mean well. YOu are worrying about stuff that does not even matter.-You 'tried to do a Moe Norman swing'?-What does that even MEAN right now? Because that doesnt resemble a MOe Norman swing at all, or any other good swing. Youve gotten good advice here and you are ignoring it.-Erik(almost typed Eric again ha ha) and Mike are two of the best and you are not even listening to them.YOu cannot do a 'Moe Norman swing' right now you look like youve never even seen golfers hit the ball right now and you seem to have no concept of what your body has to do. Put your head against a wall and try to do this.-LEts see film of this drill: [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUmL6wjtLfs[/VIDEO]

[FireDragon76]

Did you see EJs post above?-You didnt respond to it

HEre is my advice for you.-I mean well.

YOu are worrying about stuff that does not even matter.-You 'tried to do a Moe Norman swing'?-What does that even MEAN right now? Because that doesnt resemble a MOe Norman swing at all, or any other good swing.

I didn't respond to EJ's post because I believed I had nothing constructive to say.  EJ's appeal to authority is illogical given the nature of the internet and the fact I don't know Mike and Erik from Adam.  Just because someone teaches professional golfers doesn't mean they necessarily have anything relevant to teach me.  In short if you want to convince me you are actually going to have to show me and get beyond the golf jargon.

You want to know what I mean by focusing on a Moe Norman swing... in the second set of videos my thoughts were all about the setup and swinging on that plane.  I wanted to keep the ball far enough away from me that when I swung through the clubhead would tend to fly outward back towards the ball, just like where I set it up.  My depth perception is limited so I cannot depend on hand-eye coordination alone to help me hit the ball.  That is really what is appealing about the Moe Norman swing, for me , the setup has a more direct relationship with the impact position- it is indeed harder to miss the ball.  The rest of the swing might suck but that's a secondary issue, just having it set up in that way seems to help ball contact a great deal.

[Lihu]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

Did you see EJs post above?-You didnt respond to it

HEre is my advice for you.-I mean well.

YOu are worrying about stuff that does not even matter.-You 'tried to do a Moe Norman swing'?-What does that even MEAN right now? Because that doesnt resemble a MOe Norman swing at all, or any other good swing.

I didn't respond to EJ's post because I believed I had nothing constructive to say.  EJ's appeal to authority is illogical given the nature of the internet and the fact I don't know Mike and Erik from Adam.  Just because someone teaches professional golfers doesn't mean they necessarily have anything relevant to teach me.  In short if you want to convince me you are actually going to have to show me and get beyond the golf jargon.

You want to know what I mean by focusing on a Moe Norman swing... in the second set of videos my thoughts were all about the setup and swinging on that plane.  I wanted to keep the ball far enough away from me that when I swung through the clubhead would tend to fly outward back towards the ball, just like where I set it up.  My depth perception is limited so I cannot depend on hand-eye coordination alone to help me hit the ball.  That is really what is appealing about the Moe Norman swing, for me, the setup has a more direct relationship with the impact position- it is indeed harder to miss the ball.  The rest of the swing might suck but that's a secondary issue, just having it set up in that way seems to help ball contact a great deal.

Let me start off by saying that they really do know their stuff. Just read some of their responses carefully.

What I highlighted above is not the most constructive way to get help on this site, considering this is their site.

What EJ said was absolutely correct, and he spent some time preparing his response to you. It seems that you should at least entertain what he stated. The reason for the "slapping forehead" emoticons was because he was noticeably irritated by the way you responded to our instructors.

This is a really great site to gain golf swing knowledge. I realize that you live in Orlando and that golf instruction is pretty commonplace, but you need to understand that good instruction is not so easy to come by. Not only do they give good instruction here, but they give it to you without any expectation of monetary return.

Take advantage of it, before losing the opportunity.

[CarlSpackler]

I appears to me that you are scouring the inet looking for a quick fix to your swing. I can assure you, there is none. You will find a lot of people willing to sell you a quick fix, but there is none. @mvmac and @iacas along with others have given you some really good advice that will get you started on building a really good swing. I will point out that they have asked for nothing from you. All I can tell you is that they are straight up guys that are willing to help. The worst golf lesson I ever had was from a local pro who looked at my swing and told me there was nothing wrong with it. I wasn't charged and went on thinking I had a perfect swing which was far from the truth.

My advice is to stop thinking and searching and just do what they suggest. It will take time, but it WILL work.

Just my $.02

Best of luck to you.

[saevel25]

I didn't respond to EJ's post because I believed I had nothing constructive to say.  EJ's appeal to authority is illogical given the nature of the internet and the fact I don't know Mike and Erik from Adam.  Just because someone teaches professional golfers doesn't mean they necessarily have anything relevant to teach me.  In short if you want to convince me you are actually going to have to show me and get beyond the golf jargon.

I believe this was posted before here. If not, then here is the evidence. Actual data collected on golfers (over 1000) and how they improved versus the number of the 5 keys they have.

Also, the golf swing is golf jargon. You can't get past that. No matter what video's or try to mimic Moe Norman, you will not get some magical cure to fixing your golf swing. It takes hard work and dedication. Some people are lucky enough to have an innate starting point. I got down to about a 14 handicap with out taking many lessons. I got down to a 6.3 by investing time and effort into the 5SK through Erik, Dave and Mike. Even still I have a ways to go. By that chart I average about 2.5 total keys earned. Golf is HARD!

There are a lot of other members on this forum who have My Swing threads who have shown great advancement in their golf swing.

[cipher]

My advice is for everyone else.  "Some men you just can't reach."

[Phil McGleno]

dude, seriously-That is your answer? [quote name="FireDragon76" url="/t/77970/my-swing-firedragon76/18#post_1076374"]I didn't respond to EJ's post because I believed I had nothing constructive to say.  EJ's appeal to authority is illogical given the nature of the internet and the fact I don't know Mike and Erik from Adam.  Just because someone teaches professional golfers doesn't mean they necessarily have anything relevant to teach me.  In short if you want to convince me you are actually going to have to show me and get beyond the golf jargon. You want to know what I mean by focusing on a Moe Norman swing... in the second set of videos my thoughts were all about the setup and swinging on that plane.  I wanted to keep the ball far enough away from me that when I swung through the clubhead would tend to fly outward back towards the ball, just like where I set it up.  My depth perception is limited so I cannot depend on hand-eye coordination alone to help me hit the ball.  That is really what is appealing about the Moe Norman swing, for me , the setup has a more direct relationship with the impact position- it is indeed harder to miss the ball.  The rest of the swing might suck but that's a secondary issue, just having it set up in that way seems to help ball contact a great deal.[/quote] http://thesandtrap.com/f/4088/swing-thoughts They know a thing or two.-Do you have $29.95? Buy the book they sell.-Im not the first person to tell you this and wont be the last.-Or dont but its the only time they ask you for money, ever, period.-Im a teacher and like what theyve done so much I paid for a Supporter membership even tho Im a PGA pro and teach like they do. If you want to say you dont know them from Adam thats fine but the millions of words of advice and tips and discussion theyve given out or shared for free or their videos or whatever are RIGHT HERE FOR YOU to look at if you want.-You might not know them from Adam but that is YOUR fault and YOUR choice and-IMO- YOUR mistake. Good luck-They are good people and will probably be able to overlook your brain farting here.-I wouldn't blame them if they were done tho.

[FireDragon76]

Also, the golf swing is golf jargon. You can't get past that.

This isn't really true.  Mvmac did a great comparison of my swing with Moe Norman... so now I understand what you are all talking about.  But the issue isn't really with my shoulders, its with my whole upper body not being inclined relative to the ground on the backswing.