Do pro golfers hit harder than in the past?

[FireDragon76]

A result of where another thread I started went got me thinking about a related subject:  I've read on this forum that in years past, with persimmon woods... pro's just didn't hit as hard as they do today: the equipment would punish miss-hits too much.   I'd be curious to know if there is any hard evidence for this.  I suppose the best evidence would be clubhead speeds, but even that would have issues when considering different technology like graphite vs. steel.  Changes in player injuries could be evidence to consider as well, but the effects of more "pre-habilitation" on the part of players would be a confounding variable.

And of course, this also leads me to wonder if it's true that distance is more important than accuracy, if that has always been so for the game, or if its just a result of modern technology?

[mvmac]

A result of where another thread I started went got me thinking about a related subject:  I've read on this forum that in years past, with persimmon woods... pro's just didn't hit as hard as they do today: the equipment would punish miss-hits too much.   I'd be curious to know if there is any hard evidence for this.  I suppose the best evidence would be clubhead speeds, but even that would have issues when considering different technology like graphite vs. steel.  Changes in player injuries could be evidence to consider as well, but the effects of more "pre-habilitation" on the part of players would be a confounding variable.

These guys hit it HARD. Just watch their swings.

When you have good mechanics, hitting it hard doesn't result in more off-center hits. Swinging "easy" doesn't guarantee more center contact. I'm not saying they're swinging at 110% (except Norman ) but they aren't swinging any "easier" than the pros do now.

And of course, this also leads me to wonder if it's true that distance is more important than accuracy, if that has always been so for the game, or if its just a result of modern technology?

Distance is and has always been important. Jones, Snead, Hogan, Palmer, Nicklaus, Norman, Tiger, all hit it farther than most of the guys they played against.

[chasm]

Have a look on YouTube for "Jack Nicklaus swing slow motion". I think you will conclude that in his prime he was hitting the ball as hard as anyone. He (and Hogan, and Player and so on) certainly weren't holding back for fear of mis-hits. I don't think there's much doubt that there has been some improvement in the physical conditioning of a lot of top pros, so maybe the average swing speed on Tour has risen over the years. But most of the difference in length is not in how hard they hit it, it's in the equipment; and much of that is probably the ball. Anecdotal, but the pro at my home course took a persimmon driver onto his trackman set-up a few months ago, and was surprised at how little distance he lost relative to his new Ti driver. He found the club much less forgiving, as you'd expect, but a centred strike was getting out there pretty well.

[Ernest Jones]

I'm not saying they're swinging at 110% (except Norman ) but they aren't swinging any "easier" than the pros do now.

Just to avoid any confusion on the OP's part, the Norman referred to is Greg Norman, not Moe.

[FireDragon76]

Greg Norman's swing looks brutal in how much he's moving his pelvis and flexing his lower back (of course he looks like he has more natural flexibility too).  Ben Hogan, not so much.  I wouldn't describe it as an easy swing but it looks like he's using different parts of the body, more like a baseball player.  Still, it would be interesting to know how fast their clubheads were moving.

[Shorty]

Greg Norman was the greatest driver in the history of the game. Staggeringly long AND very accurate. He was several levels above and beyond his peers. Technology levelled the playing field.

There were players like Andy Bean who hit it a long way but not straight.

If Norman were in his prime now (and Nicklaus), the distance they would get with modern drivers would be frightening.

McIlroy probably could have competed with wooden drivers. He isn't holding back very much nowadays, but he is so smooth and balanced his power is partly hidden from view.

[mvmac]

Still, it would be interesting to know how fast their clubheads were moving.

They were swinging it fast. Hogan and Jack were swinging north of 115mph (shorter steel shafts), Norman was just into the 120's. Basically they were swinging it similar speeds to what Sergio and Rory swing it. In Jack and Norman's cases, maybe faster.

Also a swing that looks "smooth" doesn't means it's an "easy" swing, it just means everything is sequenced well.

[iacas]

Average clubhead speed has increased about 11 MPH since Greg Norman's heyday to now.

Some of that is from longer, lighter clubs.

Some of it is from improved fitness.

Some of it is from BIGGER clubheads, which give players more confidence.

I think players do hit it harder now. But that's not contrary to what @mvmac said because he talked only about the top players, the longer hitters. They were hitting the ball HARD then too. I'm talking about the average player(s) - 11 MPH faster is "harder," IMO.

[FireDragon76]

This is just my guess but I'd bet most of the 11mph difference is due to graphite shafts and hollow titanium clubheads.

[iacas]

This is just my guess but I'd bet most of the 11mph difference is due to graphite shafts and hollow titanium clubheads.

In every test I've seen modern players don't drop even half of that 11 MPH when they're handed a steel-shafted persimmon driver.

The purses increased, and so golfers today are better than golfers from the 1960s or 1970s. Part of that "being better" is that they're capable of hitting the ball farther. They're better athletes. They train better (or train at all - there was really no "training" in the 1960s). Etc.

[FireDragon76]

Were most pro golfers just not in very good shape back then?  What was the attitude towards physical fitness and golf?

Greg Norman, Hogan, and Nicklaus all look like they have bodies with conditioning suited to their golf swing.

BTW... what is the whole waggle Jack Nicklaus is doing in that video?  I just don't see many people doing that sort of thing now days.  Practice swings, yes, but not waggles.

[iacas]

Were most pro golfers just not in very good shape back then?  What was the attitude towards physical fitness and golf?

Greg Norman, Hogan, and Nicklaus all look like they have bodies with conditioning suited to their golf swing.

Nicklaus' nickname during his early years was "Fat Jack." Almost none worked out at all, no.

Lot more of the Craig Stadler types back then than now.

Please read this too:

[chasm]

Nicklaus' nickname during his early years was "Fat Jack."

Yes, Nicklaus in the early 60s carried a fair but of weight. He was extremely strong, though. [quote]Lot more of the Craig Stadler types back then than now. [/quote] None that I can think of who were quite as big as Kevin, though. When Craig was being called "The Walrus" he was substantially slimmer than his son is at a similar age

[iacas]

Yes, Nicklaus in the early 60s carried a fair but of weight. He was extremely strong, though.

Doesn't change the point I was making: guys today can and do swing equipment from the 1970s faster than they did during the 1970s. They're more fit and better athletic specimens. Increased competition has required this.

[chasm]

Doesn't change the point I was making: guys today can and do swing equipment from the 1970s faster than they did during the 1970s. They're more fit and better athletic specimens. Increased competition has required this.

I'm absolutely not disputing the fact that swing speeds have increased, you know much more about that than I do. I am, however, sceptical about the supposedly improved athleticism of most pro golfers. Obviously Woods, McIlroy and a bunch of others show the evidence of long hours in the gym. I wonder, though, how much better the more heavily-muscled Woods is than was the slimmer, lighter version that turned pro and ran away with the Masters? Plus, many top pros are conspicuously overweight. Westwood (who also spends a fair bit of time in the gym) is fatter than "Fat Jack" was in his fat period, and there are plenty of tour pros who look flabbier than he does. People in the fifties and sixties were, in general, slimmer and fitter than they are today. Golfers may not have worked out much, but if one looks at footage of Nelson, Hogan, Palmer, these were not couch potatoes.

[newtogolf]

I'm absolutely not disputing the fact that swing speeds have increased, you know much more about that than I do. I am, however, sceptical about the supposedly improved athleticism of most pro golfers.

Obviously Woods, McIlroy and a bunch of others show the evidence of long hours in the gym. I wonder, though, how much better the more heavily-muscled Woods is than was the slimmer, lighter version that turned pro and ran away with the Masters?

Plus, many top pros are conspicuously overweight. Westwood (who also spends a fair bit of time in the gym) is fatter than "Fat Jack" was in his fat period, and there are plenty of tour pros who look flabbier than he does.

People in the fifties and sixties were, in general, slimmer and fitter than they are today. Golfers may not have worked out much, but if one looks at footage of Nelson, Hogan, Palmer, these were not couch potatoes.

Tiger always worked out, the slimmer version was still in much better condition than most.  You don't have to be big to be strong and fit. Conversely, if you have a gut and moobs then you're likely not eating healthy or spending much time in the gym which doesn't mean you're not strong but possibly not well conditioned.

[dfreuter415]

They were swinging it fast. Hogan and Jack were swinging north of 115mph (shorter steel shafts), Norman was just into the 120's. Basically they were swinging it similar speeds to what Sergio and Rory swing it. In Jack and Norman's cases, maybe faster.

When I was 20, a friend of mine and I went to the PGA Team Championship at Laurel Valley. (The team championship, played under a variety of names, was a golf tournament on the PGA Tour from 1965 to 1972. It was only considered an official event from 1968 to 1972.)

I know the pros today are hitting ridiculous distances, but watching Jack Nicklaus drive a ball at age 30 is indelibly etched into my brain. The distance, trajectory and accuracy was something that no one on the tour at that time could duplicate.  And to see him hit the driver live, up close, and in person was incredible.

I've seen Tiger, Phil, Bubba, Angel and most of the long hitters live in the '94 and '07 U.S. Opens at Oakmont, and just can't get as excited about their drives as I did watching Jack. In all fairness, it might have been my youth that made Nicklaus seem larger than life, but I wasn't a Jack fan at the time - Arnie is my all-time favorite. Watching Jack came with the territory that day, since he was Arnie's partner. But after you saw him, there was no denying that he was the dominant force on the tour. Very impressive.

mvmac, here's a question: how do you rank Sam Snead with the driver?  Prior to Jack Nicklaus' emergence, Snead was considered the best driver on tour, if not in history (at that time).

[iacas]

I'm absolutely not disputing the fact that swing speeds have increased, you know much more about that than I do. I am, however, sceptical about the supposedly improved athleticism of most pro golfers.

I'm not skeptical.

Golf is a more competitive sport these days.