Hole-in-one? Or easy birdie? Would you count it?

[Fourputt]

I'm not sure if this has been asked yet - is there a time limit the ball can sit there? If you get to the green and it falls, is it an ace? What about when you pull the flag stick out assuming you don't touch the ball?

The rule reads that you get a reasonable time to reach the hole, plus 10 seconds.  If it falls when removing the flagstick, then I'd say you are too late.  It could even be deemed that your act of removing it was what caused the ball to fall.  If the ball has been sitting there for 5 minutes while the rest of your group plays and you walk or drive to the green, then I'd say that the allowed waiting time has expired.  One has to use some common sense with this as with many of the rules.

[Abu3baid]

The rule reads that you get a reasonable time to reach the hole, plus 10 seconds.  If it falls when removing the flagstick, then I'd say you are too late.  It could even be deemed that your act of removing it was what caused the ball to fall.  If the ball has been sitting there for 5 minutes while the rest of your group plays and you walk or drive to the green, then I'd say that the allowed waiting time has expired.  One has to use some common sense with this as with many of the rules.

I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to me.. If I hit a ball to the green and we can see from a distance that it is very close or could even be on the lip and I wait for the three other guys to hit their ball and then as I am walking up to the green 4 minutes later the ball falls then I am deemed to have taken too much time? It seems to me that the common sense is on the other side of the argument. Wouldn't you?

[Golfingdad]

The rule reads that you get a reasonable time to reach the hole, plus 10 seconds.  If it falls when removing the flagstick, then I'd say you are too late.  It could even be deemed that your act of removing it was what caused the ball to fall.  If the ball has been sitting there for 5 minutes while the rest of your group plays and you walk or drive to the green, then I'd say that the allowed waiting time has expired.  One has to use some common sense with this as with many of the rules.

[quote name="Abu3baid" url="/t/79115/hole-in-one-or-easy-birdie-would-you-count-it/30#post_1093888"] I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to me.. If I hit a ball to the green and we can see from a distance that it is very close or could even be on the lip and I wait for the three other guys to hit their ball and then as I am walking up to the green 4 minutes later the ball falls then I am deemed to have taken too much time? It seems to me that the common sense is on the other side of the argument. Wouldn't you?[/quote]Makes perfect sense to me. If it hasn't fallen in five minutes but then does fall when you are moving something that's touching the hole, it would be a tough sell for me to consider that a coincidence.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The rule reads that you get a reasonable time to reach the hole, plus 10 seconds.  If it falls when removing the flagstick, then I'd say you are too late.  It could even be deemed that your act of removing it was what caused the ball to fall.  If the ball has been sitting there for 5 minutes while the rest of your group plays and you walk or drive to the green, then I'd say that the allowed waiting time has expired.  One has to use some common sense with this as with many of the rules.

I'm sorry that doesn't make sense to me.. If I hit a ball to the green and we can see from a distance that it is very close or could even be on the lip and I wait for the three other guys to hit their ball and then as I am walking up to the green 4 minutes later the ball falls then I am deemed to have taken too much time? It seems to me that the common sense is on the other side of the argument. Wouldn't you?

No, the letter of the rule is on the other side.  Common sense says that the ball is at rest if it has been sitting there for 4 or 5 minutes.  The intent of the rule is to apply it to a putt or chip from very close to the green, allow the player a reasonable amount of time to approach the hole, plus 10 seconds.  The key is the word "reasonable", which implies that anything over a few seconds beyond that 10 second wait is unreasonable.  The intent is to prevent players from unduly delaying play while waiting for a putt close to the hole to drop.  It's not for the purpose of allowing a player to take advantage of an act of God.  That is where common sense comes into play.

Besides, when was the last time you came across this?  Or saw it happen?  Ever?  That ball in the photo is never coming out of its crater until it's pried out.  That would be typical of most any embedded ball, and a ball simply overhanging the hole isn't even what this thread is about.

[Pretzel]

Aside from hitting the ball away from the hole on purpose, has anyone putting toward the hole ever missed a putt where the ball is overhanging the lip of the hole?

Sadly, yes, and in a tournament that I ended up losing by a stroke too..

It was raining, my ball was sitting on the lip on the ninth hole, and I just walked up to tap it in. I didn't really take a stance or anything, just swiped at it, and missed the ball by coming over the top of it.

Even if I had made the putt I would've lost anyways, since they were just going to do a scorecard playoff which I would have lost, as opposed to a live playoff due to the weather, so I don't feel bad about it. I just won't do it again.

[turtleback]

Makes perfect sense to me. If it hasn't fallen in five minutes but then does fall when you are moving something that's touching the hole, it would be a tough sell for me to consider that a coincidence.

I think they are talking at cross purposes. @ Fourputt is talking about the pulling of the flag after the ball has been on the edge for some time. @Abu3baid is tal king about simp ly walking onto the green after hitting his approach shot.  I cannot imagine anyone claiming that a if a shot is hit to the green which results in the ball being on the edge, and 3 minutes later the player walks onto the green and as he does so the ball falls, that the 3 minutes counts as his more than fulfilling the 10 seconds,

Sadly, yes, and in a tournament that I ended up losing by a stroke too..

It was raining, my ball was sitting on the lip on the ninth hole, and I just walked up to tap it in. I didn't really take a stance or anything, just swiped at it, and missed the ball by coming over the top of it.

Even if I had made the putt I would've lost anyways, since they were just going to do a scorecard playoff which I would have lost, as opposed to a live playoff due to the weather, so I don't feel bad about it. I just won't do it again.

Related to Hale Irwin, are you?

You picked a much better place to learn this lesson that he did.

[Abu3baid]

No, the letter of the rule is on the other side.  Common sense says that the ball is at rest if it has been sitting there for 4 or 5 minutes.  The intent of the rule is to apply it to a putt or chip from very close to the green, allow the player a reasonable amount of time to approach the hole, plus 10 seconds.  The key is the word "reasonable", which implies that anything over a few seconds beyond that 10 second wait is unreasonable.  The intent is to prevent players from unduly delaying play while waiting for a putt close to the hole to drop.  It's not for the purpose of allowing a player to take advantage of an act of God.  That is where common sense comes into play.   Besides, when was the last time you came across this?  Or saw it happen?  Ever?  That ball in the photo is never coming out of its crater until it's pried out.  That would be typical of most any embedded ball, and a ball simply overhanging the hole isn't even what this thread is about.

I was addressing your comment, so the fact that the ball over hanging the hole isn't what this thread is about doesn't make a difference for the purpose of my post. Again, I understand what the rule was made for, and the fact that I have never encountered the example I mentioned doesn't make a difference as to what the ruling should be should the situation arise. If that is common sense then there is something terribly gone wrong.. So what would be te correct action? For me to run up to my ball as fast as I can from 120 yards out while my partners are hitting their shots?? Yeah... Right. Drew I think you misread my post.. I said as I am walking up to the green. I haven't reached the pin or even close to it.. I am just putting my first foot on it after driving up after the other three guys hit and the ball just so happens to fall.. There wa no unduly delay as far as I'm concerned and I should be allowed to get to the pin and wait 10 seconds as well.. He was saying that the fact that I didn't get to it made the time run out and this to me doesn't meet my own sniff test sorry.

[Abu3baid]

I think they are talking at cross purposes.  @Fourputt is talking about the pulling of the flag after the ball has been on the edge for some time.  @Abu3baid is talking about simply walking onto the green after hitting his approach shot.  I cannot imagine anyone claiming that a if a shot is hit to the green which results in the ball being on the edge, and 3 minutes later the player walks onto the green and as he does so the ball falls, that the 3 minutes counts as his more than fulfilling the 10 seconds,  Related to Hale Irwin, are you? You picked a much better place to learn this lesson that he did.

Exactly, it doesn't make any sense. He said according to the rules it does and so does the fact that five minutes is too long a time and that it was common sense.. It just didn't register for me.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

I think they are talking at cross purposes.  @Fourputt is talking about the pulling of the flag after the ball has been on the edge for some time.  @Abu3baid is talking about simply walking onto the green after hitting his approach shot.  I cannot imagine anyone claiming that a if a shot is hit to the green which results in the ball being on the edge, and 3 minutes later the player walks onto the green and as he does so the ball falls, that the 3 minutes counts as his more than fulfilling the 10 seconds,

Related to Hale Irwin, are you?

You picked a much better place to learn this lesson that he did.

Exactly, it doesn't make any sense. He said according to the rules it does and so does the fact that five minutes is too long a time and that it was common sense.. It just didn't register for me.

It has been observed throughout history that not everyone has been blessed with a reasonable amount of common sense.  If you just use that as a standard, then you wouldn't even have to ask the question.    Many of the decisions have been added to satisfy that shortcoming.  That sort of decision would have been unnecessary if all players had the same ability to apply the rules in a reasonable manner.  I see no reason to go to extremes to dig out a loophole where none really exists.

[rehmwa]

ok ok ok

WHAT IF - the ball hits short of the hole so hard that it buries itself in the turf and hits the cup so hard that it dents in the plastic liner so much that it's pretty much over 50% through the original plane of the edge of the hole?  (i.e. over half is in the hole and the ball is completely below ground level)

(smiley for the more self obtuse people in the crowd - you may or may not know who you are)

[Golfingdad]

Drew I think you misread my post.. I said as I am walking up to the green. I haven't reached the pin or even close to it.. I am just putting my first foot on it after driving up after the other three guys hit and the ball just so happens to fall.. There wa no unduly delay as far as I'm concerned and I should be allowed to get to the pin and wait 10 seconds as well.. He was saying that the fact that I didn't get to it made the time run out and this to me doesn't meet my own sniff test sorry.

Gotcha.  Yeah, I was specifically addressing the removing the pin part of it, not the time part of it.  It seems to me that "reasonable" amount of time could be simply defined as "no more time than it would take you to go mark your ball were it not overhanging the lip."

[Abu3baid]

I see no reason to go to extremes to dig out a loophole where none really exists.

I'm sorry, but I'm not the one digging out any loophole..

This is exactly what you said below:

If the ball has been sitting there for 5 minutes while the rest of your group plays and you walk or drive to the green, then I'd say that the allowed waiting time has expired.  One has to use some common sense with this as with many of the rules.

So.. you came up with the scenario above and at the same time gave the ruling and then claimed that it is "common sense".

I simply gave the counter argument that common sense here would actually be the opposite of what you actually claimed to be common sense..

i.e.  If it was me who hit the ball and the rest of the group plays and I drive up to the green and take a step on the green after 5 minutes and the ball suddenly dropped as I am walking towards it, it would be silly to think that the governing body of golf would say that my time has run out as you just did above.. I'm sorry... to me it just makes no sense, but to you it makes perfect common sense!

Then you went ahead with the below about historically people haven't been blessed with a reasonable amount of common sense, and that I am digging extreme loopholes and decisions would be unnecessary and such.. I didn't post it again, but I think you even mentioned why am I even talking about it since I have never been in that situation which was strange since you are the one who brought up the example and not me.

It has been observed throughout history that not everyone has been blessed with a reasonable amount of common sense.  If you just use that as a standard, then you wouldn't even have to ask the question.    Many of the decisions have been added to satisfy that shortcoming.  That sort of decision would have been unnecessary if all players had the same ability to apply the rules in a reasonable manner.  I see no reason to go to extremes to dig out a loophole where none really exists.

Anyway.. I would still be interested in the official ruling, but I think what Drew said makes the most sense below:

Gotcha.  Yeah, I was specifically addressing the removing the pin part of it, not the time part of it.  It seems to me that "reasonable" amount of time could be simply defined as "no more time than it would take you to go mark your ball were it not overhanging the lip."

This depends on how far away from the hole you are.. so if you just Tee'd off on a 170 par 3 and you hit first then the reasonable time would be as long as it would take for the rest of your group to hit the ball, and for all of you to get to the green and for you to walk to the flag (without sprinting)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I see no reason to go to extremes to dig out a loophole where none really exists.

I'm sorry, but I'm not the one digging out any loophole..

This is exactly what you said below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If the ball has been sitting there for 5 minutes while the rest of your group plays and you walk or drive to the green, then I'd say that the allowed waiting time has expired.  One has to use some common sense with this as with many of the rules.

So.. you came up with the scenario above and at the same time gave the ruling and then claimed that it is "common sense".

I simply gave the counter argument that common sense here would actually be the opposite of what you actually claimed to be common sense..

i.e.  If it was me who hit the ball and the rest of the group plays and I drive up to the green and take a step on the green after 5 minutes and the ball suddenly dropped as I am walking towards it, it would be silly to think that the governing body of golf would say that my time has run out as you just did above.. I'm sorry... to me it just makes no sense, but to you it makes perfect common sense!

Then you went ahead with the below about historically people haven't been blessed with a reasonable amount of common sense, and that I am digging extreme loopholes and decisions would be unnecessary and such.. I didn't post it again, but I think you even mentioned why am I even talking about it since I have never been in that situation which was strange since you are the one who brought up the example and not me.

You can argue hypothetical situations all day and nobody ever wins.  I'm done with this one.  When you see this happen to you or someone else, send it into the USGA and get your own decision.

[tqcishark]

ok ok ok

WHAT IF - the ball hits short of the hole so hard that it buries itself in the turf and hits the cup so hard that it dents in the plastic liner so much that it's pretty much over 50% through the original plane of the edge of the hole?  (i.e. over half is in the hole and the ball is completely below ground level)

(smiley for the more self obtuse people in the crowd - you may or may not know who you are)

[Titleist Staff]

I'd mark birdie on the scorecard but still make him buy the beer.

[tqcishark]

Here's my take.  That situation seems covered partially by several rules, but there is not a single rule in the book that completely talks to a ball lodged in the side of the cup.

In tournament stroke play I am sure there would need to be a decision, and am willing to bet the decision would be no ace.

[Abu3baid]

You can argue hypothetical situations all day and nobody ever wins.  I'm done with this one.  When you see this happen to you or someone else, send it into the USGA and get your own decision.

Ha.. So, you bring up a hypothetical situation and give a ruling. Then you are called out on it, so you answer with the above.. No hard feelings.. We all make mistakes. I won't be contacting them for any ruling as I don't care enough to do so. And I wouldn't need this hypothetical to actually occurs to contact them for the ruling actually. I'm done with this one!

[Golfingdad]

Here's my take.  That situation seems covered partially by several rules, but there is not a single rule in the book that completely talks to a ball lodged in the side of the cup.   In tournament stroke play I am sure there would need to be a decision, and am willing to bet the decision would be no ace.

Youre kidding right? I posted the decision at the beginning of the thread that is EXACTLY referring to this situation.