Would you play a non-conforming (illegal) driver?

[newtogolf]

Mos

Most the scrambles I play are either for charity or organized by a friend. Either way at the end of the day the charity or organizer/promoter makes their money on the scramble and they dont really care which drunk bends the rules. I have seen the worst fall down drunks collect their sleeve of balls for shooting a 18 under, when in fact they were the group infront of me and they were lucky to get off the tee.

I dont usually equate Scrambles with integrity and honesty.

really dont most of us expect that someone at a scramble is playing by their own rules.?

Typical scrambe is filled with hackers, who pull out 20 year old, rusted, outdated clubs that they use once a year. They usually have their own cooler or keg and are out there to have fun.

That being said, I try to keep it as close to the book as possibly and within what the organizer allows. organizer requires us to switch tee for different holes, to take a mulligan, to use a string, SO what? This is not for handicap, this is for fun and most everyone else on the course is playing by "these" rules!

now I have been in a 4some that boogies a hole and the score keeper tried to write down a par. That is not OK with me. You want a par, score one!

Golf is about honor and integrity.  I don't care what others do in a scramble though I think it's sad that guys feel the need to cheat.  If you buy string or mulligans then it's within the rules of that scramble to use them.  If the rules don't matter then why not write down eagles for every hole and be done with it.

I don't get the point of drawing distinctions between different types of cheating beyond someones attempt at justification.  Writing down incorrect scores is cheating, so is using non-conforming equipment and foot wedges you didn't pay for the right to use in my opinion.    Should I feel better my team lost to guys that played with non-conforming clubs and golf balls versus the guys that cheated in other ways?

[Elmer]

Golf is about honor and integrity.  I don't care what others do in a scramble though I think it's sad that guys feel the need to cheat.  If you buy string or mulligans then it's within the rules of that scramble to use them.  If the rules don't matter then why not write down eagles for every hole and be done with it.

I don't get the point of drawing distinctions between different types of cheating beyond someones attempt at justification.  Writing down incorrect scores is cheating, so is using non-conforming equipment and foot wedges you didn't pay for the right to use in my opinion.    Should I feel better my team lost to guys that played with non-conforming clubs and golf balls versus the guys that cheated in other ways?

My point was that any other team is probably filled with a bunch of guys, possibly drunk to varying degrees, who maybe out for the only outing of the year.

They are going to do what they do and there is nothing you can do about that. They are out there to have fun and if they need to cheat to have fun and possibly win, what can you do about it? complain to the organizer? I have never seen anyone DQ from a scramble.

I have seen some people pass out, or OD but no DQ

I myself dont want to cheat. I want to play within the rules as they have been provided for me that day (although some purists would say that using a string etc...is itself cheating,).

Point is, these people are cheating at a scramble, which most of us play purely for fun. if this was the masters and they cheated and I lost to them, I would scream like never before,

But not for a scramble.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Golf is about honor and integrity.  I don't care what others do in a scramble though I think it's sad that guys feel the need to cheat.  If you buy string or mulligans then it's within the rules of that scramble to use them.  If the rules don't matter then why not write down eagles for every hole and be done with it.

I don't get the point of drawing distinctions between different types of cheating beyond someones attempt at justification.  Writing down incorrect scores is cheating, so is using non-conforming equipment and foot wedges you didn't pay for the right to use in my opinion.    Should I feel better my team lost to guys that played with non-conforming clubs and golf balls versus the guys that cheated in other ways?

My point was that any other team is probably filled with a bunch of guys, possibly drunk to varying degrees, who maybe out for the only outing of the year.

They are going to do what they do and there is nothing you can do about that. They are out there to have fun and if they need to cheat to have fun and possibly win, what can you do about it? complain to the organizer? I have never seen anyone DQ from a scramble.

I have seen some people pass out, or OD but no DQ

I myself dont want to cheat. I want to play within the rules as they have been provided for me that day (although some purists would say that using a string etc...is itself cheating,).

Point is, these people are cheating at a scramble, which most of us play purely for fun. if this was the masters and they cheated and I lost to them, I would scream like never before,

But not for a scramble.

I don't agree that it is possible . Definitely would be more like it!

[newtogolf]

My point was that any other team is probably filled with a bunch of guys, possibly drunk to varying degrees, who maybe out for the only outing of the year.

They are going to do what they do and there is nothing you can do about that. They are out there to have fun and if they need to cheat to have fun and possibly win, what can you do about it? complain to the organizer? I have never seen anyone DQ from a scramble.

I have seen some people pass out, or OD but no DQ

I myself dont want to cheat. I want to play within the rules as they have been provided for me that day (although some purists would say that using a string etc...is itself cheating,).

Point is, these people are cheating at a scramble, which most of us play purely for fun. if this was the masters and they cheated and I lost to them, I would scream like never before,

But not for a scramble.

Right and I can only control what I do and how I play, I'm not there to police everyone else.  I participate in scrambles for the charity and enjoyment of hanging out with some buddies on a (usually) nice golf course, not to win.  I play within the rules of the scramble even though I know that others are cheating.  I wouldn't feel right winning a prize knowing that I cheated, but that's just me.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmer

My point was that any other team is probably filled with a bunch of guys, possibly drunk to varying degrees, who maybe out for the only outing of the year.

They are going to do what they do and there is nothing you can do about that. They are out there to have fun and if they need to cheat to have fun and possibly win, what can you do about it? complain to the organizer? I have never seen anyone DQ from a scramble.

I have seen some people pass out, or OD but no DQ

I myself dont want to cheat. I want to play within the rules as they have been provided for me that day (although some purists would say that using a string etc...is itself cheating,).

Point is, these people are cheating at a scramble, which most of us play purely for fun. if this was the masters and they cheated and I lost to them, I would scream like never before,

But not for a scramble.

Right and I can only control what I do and how I play, I'm not there to police everyone else.  I participate in scrambles for the charity and enjoyment of hanging out with some buddies on a (usually) nice golf course, not to win.  I play within the rules of the scramble even though I know that others are cheating.  I wouldn't feel right winning a prize knowing that I cheated, but that's just me.

My kids used to play scrambles, and I've played at company scrambles. The times where I played scrambles with my kids seemed to be the ones where we played by the rules. The ones where there was even lots of prize money involved were pretty lax as far as following the rules of golf.

I'm guessing if the same lax individuals played Stableford, they would end up under net par most of the time too. So, that's potentially cheating? Of course it is, even though some of it could be from not actually knowing the rules.

However, this is kind of off topic.

The question was if we would be willing to play non-conforming equipment. I answered yes, even though I am currently playing equipment that probably conforms to rules from the mid-60s (except the 460 cc head on my driver and maybe my 3W and hybrid).

Now the reason I answered "yes" is that I feel like a lot of people could use the extra distance in their games. Prior to the last month or so, I was pretty content knocking one or two kind of long drives then the rest kind of blah drives. Now that I know how what it feels like to hit farther, it's way more fun. I think that if more people could hit the ball further, it would improve their confidence and make the game more enjoyable for them. They would play more often and play a lot faster.

[Fourputt]

However, this is kind of off topic.

The question was if we would be willing to play non-conforming equipment. I answered yes, even though I am currently playing equipment that probably conforms to rules from the mid-60s (except the 460 cc head on my driver and maybe my 3W and hybrid).

Now the reason I answered "yes" is that I feel like a lot of people could use the extra distance in their games. Prior to the last month or so, I was pretty content knocking one or two kind of long drives then the rest kind of blah drives. Now that I know how what it feels like to hit farther, it's way more fun. I think that if more people could hit the ball further, it would improve their confidence and make the game more enjoyable for them. They would play more often and play a lot faster.

I would dispute your last contention.  Most of the long hitters I've known just hit it farther into the weeds and woods - get themselves in deeper trouble than those of who play to a more average length.  Longer doesn't mean straighter - long and crooked sure doesn't mean faster golf.

[newtogolf]

My kids used to play scrambles, and I've played at company scrambles. The times where I played scrambles with my kids seemed to be the ones where we played by the rules. The ones where there was even lots of prize money involved were pretty lax as far as following the rules of golf.

I'm guessing if the same lax individuals played Stableford, they would end up under net par most of the time too. So, that's potentially cheating? Of course it is, even though some of it could be from not actually knowing the rules.

However, this is kind of off topic.

The question was if we would be willing to play non-conforming equipment. I answered yes, even though I am currently playing equipment that probably conforms to rules from the mid-60s (except the 460 cc head on my driver and maybe my 3W and hybrid).

Now the reason I answered "yes" is that I feel like a lot of people could use the extra distance in their games. Prior to the last month or so, I was pretty content knocking one or two kind of long drives then the rest kind of blah drives. Now that I know how what it feels like to hit farther, it's way more fun. I think that if more people could hit the ball further, it would improve their confidence and make the game more enjoyable for them. They would play more often and play a lot faster.

As I said, it's not for me to police what others do.  I would not use non-conforming equipment but I'm all for other golfers doing whatever makes the game more enjoyable for them.  If we play for cash, then I'll insist we play by the rules, but otherwise I don't care.

[Golfingdad]

Golf is about honor and integrity.  I don't care what others do in a scramble though I think it's sad that guys feel the need to cheat.  If you buy string or mulligans then it's within the rules of that scramble to use them.  If the rules don't matter then why not write down eagles for every hole and be done with it.

I don't get the point of drawing distinctions between different types of cheating beyond someones attempt at justification.

Me too.  In a charity scramble, I wouldn't use a non-conforming club, but I wouldn't complain if somebody else did.  I would consider it akin to refusing to leave the court after losing a pick-up basketball game because nobody called traveling correctly.

But I disagree that there is not a point to drawing a distinction between different types of cheating in one of those types of scrambles.  Holing out the tap-in par instead of wasting time marking it before the other three have had a crack at the birdie is "technically" against the rules, but that is not really a big deal.  I also don't find it terribly necessary to pull out the driver and measure the exact 1 club (or whatever the rule is) for each guy to hit each non tee shot.  Again, probably technically against the rules, but not cheating.

[newtogolf]

Me too.  In a charity scramble, I wouldn't use a non-conforming club, but I wouldn't complain if somebody else did.  I would consider it akin to refusing to leave the court after losing a pick-up basketball game because nobody called traveling correctly.

But I disagree that there is not a point to drawing a distinction between different types of cheating in one of those types of scrambles.  Holing out the tap-in par instead of wasting time marking it before the other three have had a crack at the birdie is "technically" against the rules, but that is not really a big deal.  I also don't find it terribly necessary to pull out the driver and measure the exact 1 club (or whatever the rule is) for each guy to hit each non tee shot.  Again, probably technically against the rules, but not cheating.

I see your point.  The situations you cite do not offer the golfer a "real" benefit (if not match play) but are done more to speed up the game.  If you approximate a club length with good intentions then I doubt anyone would consider it cheating.  if your approximate "club length" is really 3 clubs lengths then you're cheating.

[Golfingdad]

The situations you cite do not offer the golfer a "real" benefit but are done more to speed up the game.

And that is probably the way I would use to describe the line between which rules violations in a scramble qualify as cheating and which ones don't.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

However, this is kind of off topic.

The question was if we would be willing to play non-conforming equipment. I answered yes, even though I am currently playing equipment that probably conforms to rules from the mid-60s (except the 460 cc head on my driver and maybe my 3W and hybrid).

Now the reason I answered "yes" is that I feel like a lot of people could use the extra distance in their games. Prior to the last month or so, I was pretty content knocking one or two kind of long drives then the rest kind of blah drives. Now that I know how what it feels like to hit farther, it's way more fun. I think that if more people could hit the ball further, it would improve their confidence and make the game more enjoyable for them. They would play more often and play a lot faster.

I would dispute your last contention.  Most of the long hitters I've known just hit it farther into the weeds and woods - get themselves in deeper trouble than those of who play to a more average length.  Longer doesn't mean straighter - long and crooked sure doesn't mean faster golf.

Well, I can't dispute your experiences, and I am currently hitting longer and not straighter.

However, I do feel like this is a temporary condition, that will remedy itself as I get more comfortable with my new swing.

In the case of a non-conforming driver, I would guess it will have some properties like the RSI irons from TM that also make them hit straighter and with less spin which might be one of the reasons it could be longer with the same swing? Sure, I am speculating, and who knows that the different companies are working on?

[Golfingdad]

Well, I can't dispute your experiences, and I am currently hitting longer and not straighter.

However, I do feel like this is a temporary condition, that will remedy itself as I get more comfortable with my new swing.

In the case of a non-conforming driver, I would guess it will have some properties like the RSI irons from TM that also make them hit straighter and with less spin which might be one of the reasons it could be longer with the same swing? Sure, I am speculating, and who knows that the different companies are working on?

@Fourputt is right though.  You aren't longer and straighter because you have a non-conforming driver, you are longer and straighter because you have improved your mechanics.  That's not what this thread is about.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Well, I can't dispute your experiences, and I am currently hitting longer and not straighter.

However, I do feel like this is a temporary condition, that will remedy itself as I get more comfortable with my new swing.

In the case of a non-conforming driver, I would guess it will have some properties like the RSI irons from TM that also make them hit straighter and with less spin which might be one of the reasons it could be longer with the same swing? Sure, I am speculating, and who knows that the different companies are working on?

@Fourputt is right though.  You aren't longer and straighter because you have a non-conforming driver, you are longer and straighter because you have improved your mechanics.  That's not what this thread is about.

Unfortunately, I am not straighter.

But, I really feel this is a temporary condition.

In terms of a non-conforming driver, though, I would think they could make it longer and straighter by taking spin off the shot? TM has that "Mishits happen" campaign, and I am wondering if they are making a driver to do the same as the RSI irons?

[graham57]

What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain.

This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment.

Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.

This is a good point. Besides the driver question, probably alot more people are affected by wedges becoming illegal after regulations regarding grooves changed. I have a Titleist wedge in my bag which I learned only recently (on this site!) is now illegal. I am in the process of replacing it, but feel a bit put out, as it presumably will (and is supposed to) reduce my potential ability to produce backspin or at least stop the ball quickly on the green. Somewhat grudgingly, I am going along with this and replacing t, because there is no satisfaction for me (and therefore no pride in any achievement), if I am knowingly not playing golf by the rules.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

What if the USGA came out with a rule that everyone needs to use blades and only one hybrid and 2 woods were allowed? Further, that graphite shafts are now illegal? I would venture to guess that everyone but me would complain.

This is obvously extreme, but illustrates the potential flaw in the argument against currently non conforming equipment.

Someday, high cor drivers might be perfectly legal. If you're willing to spend $10,000 on a driver you might get that 1% more performance? Future technology holds a lot potential for the game, and I'm not one to say no to progress.

This is a good point. Besides the driver question, probably alot more people are affected by wedges becoming illegal after regulations regarding grooves changed. I have a Titleist wedge in my bag which I learned only recently (on this site!) is now illegal. I am in the process of replacing it, but feel a bit put out, as it presumably will (and is supposed to) reduce my potential ability to produce backspin or at least stop the ball quickly on the green. Somewhat grudgingly, I am going along with this and replacing t, because there is no satisfaction for me (and therefore no pride in any achievement), if I am knowingly not playing golf by the rules.

Are you a professional player?  Or an amateur who plays in high level tournaments?  If not then your wedges won't be nonconforming until 2024, as long as they were not manufactured after 2010.  That rule only applies to pros and very high level amateurs until that deadline.

[turtleback]

Do you think the two actions that I mentioned in my prior post would constitute cheating in a scramble? I don't, but apparently you do (edit: apparently conferring on a club is ok - I stand corrected).

Therefore my logic is that there is no clear de-lineation between what rules of golf apply and which do not. It's up to the organizer to outline the scramble rules, and most organizers don't outline much more than the basics, leaving lots of room for gray. As a result, I think it would be a stretch to call someone a cheater if they elected to use a non conforming club.

But the rules already say you cannot change your ball unless it is lost or damaged.  There is no reason, intrinsic to a scramble, why changing the golf ball should be necessary other than the already stated reasons in the rules.  That gray area you are talking about is already all filled up with the Rules of Golf.  To take the position that your "logic" would demand, the organizers would have to issue a whole annotated rule book indicating which rules apply and which do not, since you seem to think you can break any rule that has not been reinforced and repeated by the organizers.  I think it is reasonable to assume that all rules apply that CAN apply in a scramble.  It is reasonable for the organizers to specify the distinctive rules of their scramble.  But to assume that other rules that they do not address no longer apply?  On what basis?

So yes, to me both using a non-conforming club AND changing your ball during a hole to take advantage of playability differences when your ball is not lost or damaged would be cheating in a scramble.  But so what?  Cheating is what is expected in a scramble.  But let's not make believe it isn't what it clearly is.

[rrobo]

No!  I want my score compared to others using regulation equipment.  In addition, I would call out anyone I would be playing against who would be playing an illegal club.

[rrobo]

Since my first reply, the issue of using illegal clubs in scrambles has come up.  This summer, I saw a trend in scrambles that upsets me and goes in the same vein as using illegal clubs in scrambles.  Since scrambles are normally money raising events, I am seeing those running the events selling tickets for "Mulligans".  Those who buy the most "Mulligan Tickets" normally win the scramble.  Where does it end?  Whether it is an illegal club or a foursome has twenty extra shots, the integrity of the game comes into question.  Find another way to raise money.  I will not play in a scramble that sells the "Mulligan Tickets" because it brings in other issues such as betting.  I don't mind a wager if it is my game against yours but not if you have twenty extra shots to buy your way to 15 under instead of 5 under.  Again, where does it end?  The shoe wedge?  The hole in the pocket?  Selective memory?