The Tiger Woods Retirement Thread

[David in FL]

While he may have had his personal issues, I don't see that as a reason to impugn is credibility as a professional, especially when there's no basis for it. Indeed, people were engaging in similar character attacks last year when Tiger pulled out of the Honda. He finished the final round of the subsequent WGC Cadillac, shooting a crappy 78 in obvious pain and wound up having spinal surgery. I'm assuming no one's questioning his need for the surgery or arguing he was malingering at that point. When he came back, he played lousy at the British but finished out having made the cut. He's had bad rounds and finished them if he could and he's had bad rounds and not finished them if he couldn't. When he pulled out of the Farmers last week, he was at +2 through 11 holes of the North. That's not so bad that he's embarrassing himself with his play. I don't find the cynicism to be supported by any reasonable factual basis.

Sorry, I consider the character that someone displays in real life, the way the treat their family and others to whom they're close, to be a good barometer of their true nature.  It's been my long experience that true character seldom changes much.....and that it usually manifests itself in all facets of life, even if we don't always see it......or want to.

I also struggle to understand how people somehow give more weight to how someone performs or conducts themselves while all eyes are watching, or at some game, than how they treat their wives, husbands, kids, friends, et al., when they think they won't be seen/caught.

[9iron]

While he may have had his personal issues, I don't see that as a reason to impugn is credibility as a professional, especially when there's no basis for it. Indeed, people were engaging in similar character attacks last year when Tiger pulled out of the Honda. He finished the final round of the subsequent WGC Cadillac, shooting a crappy 78 in obvious pain and wound up having spinal surgery. I'm assuming no one's questioning his need for the surgery or arguing he was malingering at that point. When he came back, he played lousy at the British but finished out having made the cut. He's had bad rounds and finished them if he could and he's had bad rounds and not finished them if he couldn't. When he pulled out of the Farmers last week, he was at +2 through 11 holes of the North. That's not so bad that he's embarrassing himself with his play. I don't find the cynicism to be supported by any reasonable factual basis.

dkolo, with all due respect, you may not believe there is any basis to be skeptical of Tiger's actions, but there is plenty in his public record for others to hold such skepticism. The man basically lived a lie that was big enough and for long enough that he felt the need to apologize on National Television. And that doesn't even bring into account his relationship with a known PED dispenser that never made it into the public domain until someone else brought it to light.

[dkolo]

Sorry, I consider the character that someone displays in real life, the way the treat their family and others to whom they're close, to be a good barometer of their true nature.  It's been my long experience that true character seldom changes much.....and that it usually manifests itself in all facets of life, even if we don't always see it......or want to.

I also struggle to understand how people somehow give more weight to how someone performs or conducts themselves while all eyes are watching, or at some game, than how they treat their wives, husbands, kids, friends, et al., when they think they won't be seen/caught.

Because we're talking about a professional golf tour and not a professional family man tour and I, for one, can separate the two in my mind. That a guy had personal issues about which we know even less than we know about his injuries doesn't give me a reason to extrapolate those personal problems into an overarching narrative. I think I've given you some reasons why I don't think your narrative holds water with respect to his professional life, but it's your prerogative if you'd like to stick with it. I just don't think it withstands logical scrutiny. I maintain that I think the most likely explanation is that Tiger is still injured and that's impacting his game adversely. I would be willing to go as far as to entertain the possibility that worrying about reinjuring himself may be a bigger issue than actual injury, but that's more speculative. I just don't think he's using an injury as a pretext for covering up flaws in his game.

[dkolo]

dkolo, with all due respect, you may not believe there is any basis to be skeptical of Tiger's actions, but there is plenty in his public record for others to hold such skepticism. The man basically lived a lie that was big enough and for long enough that he felt the need to apologize on National Television. And that doesn't even bring into account his relationship with a known PED dispenser that never made it into the public domain until someone else brought it to light.

And his connection to those PED guys never went beyond that. While a number of athletes, mostly baseball players, were implicated in using illegal substances through Biogenesis, others' interactions with that same group were found to be lacking any impropriety, such as those who were getting platelet-rich plasma treatments.

[Golfingdad]

Sorry, I consider the character that someone displays in real life, the way the treat their family and others to whom they're close, to be a good barometer of their true nature.  It's been my long experience that true character seldom changes much.....and that it usually manifests itself in all facets of life, even if we don't always see it......or want to.

I also struggle to understand how people somehow give more weight to how someone performs or conducts themselves while all eyes are watching, or at some game, than how they treat their wives, husbands, kids, friends, et al., when they think they won't be seen/caught.

What you see as character flaws, others see as only mistakes.  We all have our own experiences to draw from, and mine tell me that people can make dumb mistakes and grow from it.  It doesn't necessarily define their character nor does it mean they can't change.

For this reason, I am unwilling to pass judgment on people I know very little about.

We can all ALWAYS continue to learn.

[Pretzel]

I think that the "logical inference" is that he can play through pain when he's playing well, and wants to, but that he's equally willing to bail out given any opportunity if he's not playing well and might be embarrassed yet again.

To be totally honest, if I were in the lead of the U.S. Open I would play through a lot more pain than being middle of the pack or dead last in some other tournament. Can you honestly say that the same wouldn't apply to you? Besides that, being in the lead of a major would introduce adrenaline into his system. This would biologically increase his pain tolerance compared to the lack of adrenaline when he's playing poorly in some normal tournament. Comparing the two, both in terms of the injury incurred and possible pain tolerance at the time, is like comparing apples to oranges. Regardless of whether the pain is metally fabricated (which I personally doubt) or a physical injury, it's fairly clear to me that it's a factor in his poor play. The good news for Tiger is, short game work is less stressful on the back than full swing practice! ☺

[Golfingdad]

I think that the "logical inference" is that he can play through pain when he's playing well, and wants to, but that he's equally willing to bail out given any opportunity if he's not playing well and might be embarrassed yet again.

But who doesn't do that?  Players whose teams are in the playoff hunt (in every sport) are always playing through pain and/or putting off procedures or surgeries until after the season, whereas players whose teams are not going to make the playoffs are shutting it down.  That's just freaking common sense.  Why would you risk aggravating an injury for nothing?  That would just be dumb.

[David in FL]

What you see as character flaws, others see as only mistakes.  We all have our own experiences to draw from, and mine tell me that people can make dumb mistakes and grow from it.  It doesn't necessarily define their character nor does it mean they can't change.

For this reason, I am unwilling to pass judgment on people I know very little about.

We can all ALWAYS continue to learn.

I'm a dad, with a young daughter.  I pass judgment on people that I don't know much about all the time!  Some things give me enough insight into someone's character that I'm able to reach a conclusion as to their character and integrity, without needing to know much else.  As an example, the 16 year old with a DUI and a suspension from school for drug possession isn't going to get to date my daughter, even if that's all I know about him.  Neither is the dude who slapped his last girlfriend, no matter the "reason"....

Yep, I'm just a judgmental bastard.  I'm ok with that.

[colin007]

I wanna be a fool.

Imagine Tiger got rid of all injuries in 2015, even playing some tournaments where he makes the cut towards the end. Then he plays competitively for 10 more years on the PGA Tour. 40 majors.

Colin, back me up here.

i would love to envision that happening...but i dont think it does.  i think hes just too brittle now, these back things dont tend to be the kinds of injuries that eventually go away and never come back.  he'll be dealing with them for the rest of his career.  i dont see him playing 40 more majors.  i would actually put that number at around 20 majors in the next 10 years.

[NJpatbee]

I think Tiger will play enough to keep some sponsorships for the next few years.  Remember his apology when it was discovered he was a hound and a fraud, he made certain to seek his sponsors forgiveness.  Sure he is a driven golfer, but he is also a businessman - look at his income last year.   If he can at least get back to making cuts and a few top 10s he will keep playing for another few years.  I doubt that the has any delusions abour breaking Jack's major record, but he may win another tournament or two.  Probably the best of all time during his peak years, but those days are over and he is feeding his financial empire.  He did earn it with the impact he had on golf and the rest of the Tour despite the failures in his personal life.

[Golfingdad]

I'm a dad, with a young daughter.  I pass judgment on people that I don't know much about all the time!  Some things give me enough insight into someone's character that I'm able to reach a conclusion as to their character and integrity, without needing to know much else.  As an example, the 16 year old with a DUI and a suspension from school for drug possession isn't going to get to date my daughter, even if that's all I know about him.  Neither is the dude who slapped his last girlfriend, no matter the "reason"....

Yep, I'm just a judgmental bastard.  I'm ok with that.

Keeping your daughter away from them and saying they have a character flaw are entirely different things.  I can see a lot of things that would have me weary about my daughter dating somebody I don't know very well - but that doesn't equate to me saying they have a character flaw.

And, coincidentally, my best friend in high school DID get a DUI at 16 and use drugs. I wouldn't call that a character flaw - just some really poor decisions being made that were eventually learned from.

[David in FL]

Keeping your daughter away from them and saying they have a character flaw are entirely different things.  I can see a lot of things that would have me weary about my daughter dating somebody I don't know very well - but that doesn't equate to me saying they have a character flaw. And, coincidentally, my best friend in high school DID get a DUI at 16 and use drugs. I wouldn't call that a character flaw - just some really poor decisions being made that were eventually learned from.

As is sometimes the case, we see things differently. :-) Character flaw - poor decision making. The latter is oftentimes the result of the former. And yeah, some people due eventually grow up. That ship has likely sailed by the time someone is in their mid-30's though.

[Deryck Griffith]

I'm a dad, with a young daughter.  I pass judgment on people that I don't know much about all the time!  Some things give me enough insight into someone's character that I'm able to reach a conclusion as to their character and integrity, without needing to know much else.  As an example, the 16 year old with a DUI and a suspension from school for drug possession isn't going to get to date my daughter, even if that's all I know about him.  Neither is the dude who slapped his last girlfriend, no matter the "reason"....

Yep, I'm just a judgmental bastard.  I'm ok with that.

Tiger isn't dating your daughter and won't be and kudos to protecting her from a person who has made mistakes.  I would do so also.

But, Tiger is also a professional golfer and that is a separate to his personal life.

As it pertains to his personal life, you have no knowledge of what drove him to make the mistakes he did.  Was it the lost of his father?  Was it the immense pressure he had to deal with?  Was it that he never had an adolescent life because it was always golf, all the time from the minute he was born and he "acted" out in a manner to relive from the anger within him that no one could ever understand?  Money and success doesn't always equate to happiness and I am willing to bet Tiger wasn't truly happy deep down inside even though he was hoisting 6-8 trophies a year on the golf course. (Speaking of child prodigies, think Michael Jackson and how his adolescent life was ripped from him due to music).

These types of things create scars and or holes in a young mans soul that you or I have no idea of understanding.  I myself am speculating and don't know either so it would be judgemental for me to come to solid conclusions.  All I can base my theories on are life and how experiences in life affect people.  If someone is abused constantly as a child, and they abuse when they become older, is it right for me to fully judge when that person when they didn't have the loving and caring family that I did?  What they did to abuse in their adult life is wrong and should be punished but there is a fundamental reason to the crime and that is something I try to understand to prevent myself from being overly judgemental.  We can certainly agree that what he did was wrong AND agree that the price he paid was warranted.  But the reason for what he did isn't black and white.  There is a LOT of gray that we have to at least consider...

Going back to golf, Tiger has a long enough resume that shows his integrity in the game.  Without question, he is the most filmed / watched Golfer in history.  If his "golfing" integrity (which again, is separate from his personal life) was in question, we would have come to that conclusion a LONG time ago considering the overbearing exposure he gets and that we have been forced fed in seeing.

I think he is injured and I think he wants to play 1 and 2, has to play because his sponsors who are paying a shitload of money need him to play.  When as a sponsor you are paying millions, there are VERY strong expectations to justify those millions.  Believe you me, Tiger doesn't want to walk off the course.  1 because the pressure to perform from his sponsors alone is a gargantuan weight on his shoulders and 2, because his legacy is being ripped to shreds by threads like this.  Based on those facts, I vote he is 100% injured and HAD to walk off to not risk any future of him having to force retirement due to irreparable damage from trying to "gut it out" as people are suggesting he isn't willing to do.

Back injuries end the careers of ALL professional athletes no matter what the sport.  Tiger knows this and knows that if he dicks around with "this" specific injury, he is guaranteed finished.

Just my opinion.

[David in FL]

Going back to golf, Tiger has a long enough resume that shows his integrity in the game.  Without question, he is the most filmed / watched Golfer in history.  If his "golfing" integrity (which again, is separate from his personal life) was in question, we would have come to that conclusion a LONG time ago considering the overbearing exposure he gets and that we have been forced fed in seeing.

Integrity is often defined as "what someone does, when they think that no one is watching". Given that every move Tiger makes is on camera, it could be argued that we have no idea whether he lacks integrity with respect to golf or not.

[dkolo]

Integrity is often defined as "what someone does, when they think that no one is watching". Given that every move Tiger makes is on camera, it could be argued that we have no idea whether he lacks integrity with respect to golf or not.

I feel like you keep moving the goal posts for Tiger here.

[Big C]

But who doesn't do that?  Players whose teams are in the playoff hunt (in every sport) are always playing through pain and/or putting off procedures or surgeries until after the season, whereas players whose teams are not going to make the playoffs are shutting it down.  That's just freaking common sense.  Why would you risk aggravating an injury for nothing?  That would just be dumb.

Bingo - this happens in every sport. A few years ago, Philip Rivers played the AFC Championship on a torn ACL. If he had suffered the same injury while playing for a 5-8 Chargers team, the odds of him playing through it would be exactly 0%.

It has nothing to do with character and everything to do with common sense.

[Golfingdad]

As is sometimes the case, we see things differently.

Character flaw - poor decision making. The latter is oftentimes the result of the former. And yeah, some people due eventually grow up. That ship has likely sailed by the time someone is in their mid-30's though.

You're right - we do see things differently because I would consider passing judgment on somebody that I truly know nothing about to be more of a "character flaw" than making a a couple of bad decisions.

[David in FL]

I feel like you keep moving the goal posts for Tiger here.

How so?