Bounce

[dkolo]

It's possible due to sole grind. You can get high bounce wedges with the camber ground down so that the leading edge sits lower to the ground when it is open, yet retains it's higher-bounce benefits. I have a Vokey SM5 60.08 with the M grind. The leading edge sits fairly low to the ground even when I open it up all the way.

I'm trying to visualize this so let me know if I'm understanding this correctly. If the bounce angle were a slice of pizza, the grind would be cutting off material on the crust end of the slice on one side. So the angle remains whatever it is, it just doesn't extend outward as far as it would if you didn't remove any material.

[Shorty]

I'm trying to visualize this so let me know if I'm understanding this correctly. If the bounce angle were a slice of pizza, the grind would be cutting off material on the crust end of the slice on one side. So the angle remains whatever it is, it just doesn't extend outward as far as it would if you didn't remove any material.

That is an awful analogy. You are at the wrong end of the pizza slice.

Best to look at the picture posted by boogielicious.

No analogy needed. Look at the picture. It shows it all very clearly.

The grind just means you can open up the wedge or lay it back without the sole getting in the way.

[billchao]

I'm trying to visualize this so let me know if I'm understanding this correctly. If the bounce angle were a slice of pizza, the grind would be cutting off material on the crust end of the slice on one side. So the angle remains whatever it is, it just doesn't extend outward as far as it would if you didn't remove any material.

I don't get the pizza analogy either, but I think you got it. If you look at the left picture here, you can see how it would look if the gold part wasn't on the club, how the leading edge would sit lower to the ground when you open the face. [quote name="boogielicious" url="/t/80361/bounce#post_1110161"][URL=http://thesandtrap.com/content/type/61/id/115090/] [/URL] [/quote]

[iacas]

It's possible due to sole grind. You can get high bounce wedges with the camber ground down so that the leading edge sits lower to the ground when it is open, yet retains it's higher-bounce benefits.

Yup.

That is an awful analogy. You are at the wrong end of the pizza slice.

Made sense to me. But I may know what he was trying to say.

Leading edge is on the right. Shows a wide sole with a high bounce angle and still a very low leading edge.

[dkolo]

Yup.

Made sense to me. But I may know what he was trying to say.

Leading edge is on the right. Shows a wide sole with a high bounce angle and still a very low leading edge.

Thanks, I think yours and Bill's last posts have helped me get it straight!

[cspin]

Yup.

Made sense to me. But I may know what he was trying to say.

Leading edge is on the right. Shows a wide sole with a high bounce angle and still a very low leading edge.

I am struggling to interpret this drawing.  Is the diagonal line the angle of the bounce?  Where is the flat surface that the sole of the club is resting on?  Trying to get the concept but think I need to see the actual ground drawn in and the leading edge in relation to same.

Also, assuming the leading edge is in fact lowered while still having high bounce on the wedge, why would anyone play a high bounce wedge where the leading edge is unnecessarily high off the ground?  Wouldn't the high bounce / low leading edge combo fit everyone and be the best of both worlds?  Or, can the low leading edge still dig easier than a equally high bounce wedge, but with a leading edge higher off the ground?

Thanks to anyone and everyone who can help me understand this!!  I have read a lot on the topic and thought I knew my stuff on bounce, until coming across this thread.

[Shorty]

I am struggling to interpret this drawing.  Is the diagonal line the angle of the bounce?  Where is the flat surface that the sole of the club is resting on?  Trying to get the concept but think I need to see the actual ground drawn in and the leading edge in relation to same.

The Vokey illustration is the best thing to look at. It explains it all very visually and very clearly. The analogies aren't working.

[natureboy]

I am struggling to interpret this drawing.  Is the diagonal line the angle of the bounce?  Where is the flat surface that the sole of the club is resting on?  Trying to get the concept but think I need to see the actual ground drawn in and the leading edge in relation to same.

Also, assuming the leading edge is in fact lowered while still having high bounce on the wedge, why would anyone play a high bounce wedge where the leading edge is unnecessarily high off the ground?  Wouldn't the high bounce / low leading edge combo fit everyone and be the best of both worlds?  Or, can the low leading edge still dig easier than a equally high bounce wedge, but with a leading edge higher off the ground?

Thanks to anyone and everyone who can help me understand this!!  I have read a lot on the topic and thought I knew my stuff on bounce, until coming across this thread.

Me too. Don't know much about the relative advantages of different grinds and sole widths, but would like to understand better.

My take is that if you grind down the trailing edge some or narrow the sole then the same bounce angle will give you a lower leading edge. The grind or sole shape is moving the trail edge (point of contact with the ground) of the sole closer to the leading edge which reduces the vertical depth of the bounce at the same angle. Or the camber / grind 'relief' allows opening the face while maintaining a constant trailing edge vertical depth where if the trailing edge was the acute angle of the original Sarazen design then any opening of the face raises the leading edge, because that trail edge would remain the lowest point on the sole.

Probably wrong or missing key details, but I also wonder how you lower the leading edge but still have the same effective bounce. In what I think is happening above the bounce angle would be the same, but less vertical depth for the trailing edge could to me reduce the 'effective bounce' (the area of the wedge between the sole, trailing, edge, & ground) at least as I've seen bounce angle traditionally measured. I would think that depth adds to the 'planing' effect of a wedge - in sand anyway. Maybe they've figured out that the snowplow doesn't have to be that big except sometimes in fluffy sand.

[natureboy]

Timed out. Here's a pic that I think shows what I was trying to say if the 'high bounce' and 'v-sole' examples had the same bounce angle.

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Yup.

Made sense to me. But I may know what he was trying to say.

Leading edge is on the right. Shows a wide sole with a high bounce angle and still a very low leading edge.

I am struggling to interpret this drawing.  Is the diagonal line the angle of the bounce?  Where is the flat surface that the sole of the club is resting on?  Trying to get the concept but think I need to see the actual ground drawn in and the leading edge in relation to same.

Also, assuming the leading edge is in fact lowered while still having high bounce on the wedge, why would anyone play a high bounce wedge where the leading edge is unnecessarily high off the ground?  Wouldn't the high bounce / low leading edge combo fit everyone and be the best of both worlds?  Or, can the low leading edge still dig easier than a equally high bounce wedge, but with a leading edge higher off the ground?

Thanks to anyone and everyone who can help me understand this!!  I have read a lot on the topic and thought I knew my stuff on bounce, until coming across this thread.

Yes, the diagonal line represents the bounce because the angle at the leading edge will be the first part of the sole that contacts the ground.  The grind is material removed from the sole.  It starts where the first abrupt angle is after the initial bounce section.  Because the length of the bounce section is short, the section ground away lets the club leading edge sit closer to the ground.

In the drawing below, if the grind area were larger and extended closer to the leading edge, the club would sit closer to the ground.  You still have that initial bounce section though.  The helps at initial contact with the ground, or sand.  Camber is more of a smooth transition than a grind.

[cspin]

I think I found part of the answer that I was looking for in this timely article...

http://www.golfwrx.com/291931/what-is-effective-bounce-anyway/

The thing I found very interesting and did not know, was that the bounce number on any given wedge is not the "actual bounce" angle on the wedge, and that it is instead the "effective bounce" on the wedge.  In other words, a value based on how they believe the wedge will play.  So, one companies 12* bounce wedge can play much differently than another companies 12* bounce wedge.

This helps explain how the "true measured bounce angle" can remain high, while at the same time lowering the "effective bounce" by a grind that removes material from the sole.  It lowers the leading edge closer to the ground, but does not change the bounce angle right beneath the leading edge.  That bounce angle could be 20* right at the leading edge, and then be carved away to lower the leading edge closer to the ground.  If I read the article correctly, the "effective bounce" angle of that wedge may be very low (say 8*) once that grinding has been done, but the actual bounce angle will still be 20*.

Going back to my other posts in this thread, this may well explain how companies like Edel and Renegar can sell/market extremely high bounce wedges, because they may be referring to the "actual bounce angle" and not "effective bounce angle."  It would mean that a Vokey or Callaway wedge could have the same extremely high "actual bounce angle" at the leading edge as those from Edel and Renegar, and even possibly play the same, but yet have a much different bounce angle stamped on the club or in the marketing literature (or specs) on the club.

To me, this is pretty surprising to find out.  I thought bounce was bounce....like loft is loft.  I thought the only variable was the sole grind, which would allow a player to open or close a wedge to get more or less bounce.  Had no idea that one manufacturers 12* bounce wedge could play similar to another companies 10* bounce wedge, or 20*+ bounce wedge for that matter.

Anyone else surprised by this??

[Mr. Desmond]

Good info.

[natureboy]

Yes, the diagonal line represents the bounce because the angle at the leading edge will be the first part of the sole that contacts the ground.  The grind is material removed from the sole.  It starts where the first abrupt angle is after the initial bounce section.  Because the length of the bounce section is short, the section ground away lets the club leading edge sit closer to the ground.

In the drawing below, if the grind area were larger and extended closer to the leading edge, the club would sit closer to the ground.  You still have that initial bounce section though.  The helps at initial contact with the ground, or sand.  Camber is more of a smooth transition than a grind.

Helpful clarification. So you get more playability with ground trailing edge (open the face without lifting the leading edge), but what do you lose (esp. higher handicaps)? Less forgiveness in sand and deep rough?

I think I found part of the answer that I was looking for in this timely article...

http://www.golfwrx.com/291931/what-is-effective-bounce-anyway/

The thing I found very interesting and did not know, was that the bounce number on any given wedge is not the "actual bounce" angle on the wedge, and that it is instead the "effective bounce" on the wedge.  In other words, a value based on how they believe the wedge will play.  So, one companies 12* bounce wedge can play much differently than another companies 12* bounce wedge.

This helps explain how the "true measured bounce angle" can remain high, while at the same time lowering the "effective bounce" by a grind that removes material from the sole.  It lowers the leading edge closer to the ground, but does not change the bounce angle right beneath the leading edge.  That bounce angle could be 20* right at the leading edge, and then be carved away to lower the leading edge closer to the ground.  If I read the article correctly, the "effective bounce" angle of that wedge may be very low (say 8*) once that grinding has been done, but the actual bounce angle will still be 20*.

Going back to my other posts in this thread, this may well explain how companies like Edel and Renegar can sell/market extremely high bounce wedges, because they may be referring to the "actual bounce angle" and not "effective bounce angle."  It would mean that a Vokey or Callaway wedge could have the same extremely high "actual bounce angle" at the leading edge as those from Edel and Renegar, and even possibly play the same, but yet have a much different bounce angle stamped on the club or in the marketing literature (or specs) on the club.

To me, this is pretty surprising to find out.  I thought bounce was bounce....like loft is loft.  I thought the only variable was the sole grind, which would allow a player to open or close a wedge to get more or less bounce.  Had no idea that one manufacturers 12* bounce wedge could play similar to another companies 10* bounce wedge, or 20*+ bounce wedge for that matter.

Anyone else surprised by this??

Great post. I thought I had seen something like this about 'effective bounce' involving the area of the wedge between contact point and the leading edge. So what does a lower or higher effective bounce get you?

[billchao]

Helpful clarification. So you get more playability with ground trailing edge (open the face without lifting the leading edge), but what do you lose (esp. higher handicaps)? Less forgiveness in sand and deep rough?

Just from my experience, I had a tendency to slide the open wedge right under the ball in the rough when I first started playing with it. Judging the depth of the rough and where the ball was became important. It really didn't take long to get used to, and I'll gladly take the ability to hit high shots from tight lies as the payoff. Can't tell you much about sand, though. I was never very good out of the bunker.

[mvmac]

To me, this is pretty surprising to find out.  I thought bounce was bounce....like loft is loft.  I thought the only variable was the sole grind, which would allow a player to open or close a wedge to get more or less bounce.  Had no idea that one manufacturers 12* bounce wedge could play similar to another companies 10* bounce wedge, or 20*+ bounce wedge for that matter.

Anyone else surprised by this??

Yes we've talked about effective bounce a few times on here and how there are a few variables to consider.

[cspin]

mvmac,

Do you happen to know whether companies like Edel and Renegar that tout the benefit of very high bounce wedges are referring to "actual" bounce versus "effective" bounce?  I don't have the equipment to measure actual bounce angle (although it does exist), but it could well be that actual bounce angles on the big OEM company wedges have the same type of high bounce angle as on the Edel and Renegar wedges (20*+), and simply do not market / spec it that way.  I have nothing for or against Edel or Renegar and am only referencing them as I don't know any other company that touts such high bounce numbers on wedges.  Something has to give on this, as 28* of bounce (as I have heard that Edel can fit someone into) just seems awfully high.  However, it does not seem high at all if it is the "actual bounce angle."

I recognize that there is more to wedge performance than actual bounce angle.  I also recognize that there is no way to know what wedges are going to work best for a given player without testing a number of them, and preferably going through a professional wedge fitting.  I fully intend to go through such a fitting as soon as the weather cooperates up north.  The plan being to rely on the fitters recommendation, but to have a baseline understanding of why certain wedges work and others do not for my swing and playing conditions.  Certainly seems that there are strokes out there to be gained by playing the right wedges, and understanding why those are the right wedges.  Right now, I have no idea whether the wedges in my bag...should be in the bag.  Odds are likely they won't be there a couple months from now.

Thanks!!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by boogielicious

Yes, the diagonal line represents the bounce because the angle at the leading edge will be the first part of the sole that contacts the ground.  The grind is material removed from the sole.  It starts where the first abrupt angle is after the initial bounce section.  Because the length of the bounce section is short, the section ground away lets the club leading edge sit closer to the ground.

In the drawing below, if the grind area were larger and extended closer to the leading edge, the club would sit closer to the ground.  You still have that initial bounce section though.  The helps at initial contact with the ground, or sand.  Camber is more of a smooth transition than a grind.

Helpful clarification. So you get more playability with ground trailing edge (open the face without lifting the leading edge), but what do you lose (esp. higher handicaps)? Less forgiveness in sand and deep rough?

It depends on your playing style. Edel, which I have not done, spends a lot of time with the player to determine how they use their wedges.  But the grind and camber do change things a bit.

Example.  I have two Vokey 58 wedges, and SM4 58.12 and and SM5 58.11.  The 58-12 has the M-grind with high bounce and relief about half way back on the sole (left photo).  The SM5 has a smooth camber from front to back.  They both have almost the same effective bounce but play differently with pitch and sand shots.  The SM4 grabs a bit more in rough but bounces nicely in sand.  I don't have to open it up much in sand.  The SM5 glides really well in the rough and makes pitching easier.  In sand however, I have to open it up more otherwise it slides too easily through the sand and the ball goes farther than I want.  That is why the grind and bounce need to match what you want it to do.

[mvmac]

mvmac,

Do you happen to know whether companies like Edel and Renegar that tout the benefit of very high bounce wedges are referring to "actual" bounce versus "effective" bounce?  I don't have the equipment to measure actual bounce angle (although it does exist), but it could well be that actual bounce angles on the big OEM company wedges have the same type of high bounce angle as on the Edel and Renegar wedges (20*+), and simply do not market / spec it that way.  I have nothing for or against Edel or Renegar and am only referencing them as I don't know any other company that touts such high bounce numbers on wedges.  Something has to give on this, as 28* of bounce (as I have heard that Edel can fit someone into) just seems awfully high.  However, it does not seem high at all if it is the "actual bounce angle."

I would say Edel wedges and others like PING are closer than you think. It depends how you measure the bounce and the particular grind but I would say that OEM's underreport the amount of bounce on their wedges. At least that's what I'v been told by a guy that designs them for a well known OEM.