2015 NFL Football Thread

[Golfingdad]

Incognito claimed he was told by the coaches to toughen Martin up

So you're saying that Joe Philbin ordered the Code Red?

"We live in a world that has goallines.  Who's going to protect those goallines?  You?  You @saevel25 ??  I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.  You weep for Martin and you curse the Dolphins.  You have that luxury.  The luxury of not knowing what I know.  That Martins bullying, while tragic, probably saved games.  And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you - and all other Dolphins fans - saves games.  You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at tailgates, you want me on that sideline, you need me on that sideline.  We use words like blitz, tackle, and deflate.  We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending the goalline.  You use them as a punchline.  I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps in a Dolphins jersey that I donated to a radio contest, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.  I would rather you just said thank you and went and bought season tickets as well.  Otherwise, I suggest you put on a helmet and tryout.  Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

[saevel25]

So you're saying that Joe Philbin ordered the Code Red?

"We live in a world that has goallines.  Who's going to protect those goallines?  You?  You @saevel25 ??  I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.  You weep for Martin and you curse the Dolphins.  You have that luxury.  The luxury of not knowing what I know.  That Martins bullying, while tragic, probably saved games.

Wins since 2002: 9, 10, 4, 9, 6, 1, 11, 7, 7, 6, 7, 8, 8

Saved games? Looks pretty average to me :)

You use them as a punchline.  I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps in a Dolphins jersey that I donated to a radio contest, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.

I would be wearing a Dallas Cowboy's jersey

[newtogolf]

So you're saying that Joe Philbin ordered the Code Red?

"We live in a world that has goallines.  Who's going to protect those goallines?  You?  You @saevel25 ??  I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.  You weep for Martin and you curse the Dolphins.  You have that luxury.  The luxury of not knowing what I know.  That Martins bullying, while tragic, probably saved games.  And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you - and all other Dolphins fans - saves games.  You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at tailgates, you want me on that sideline, you need me on that sideline.  We use words like blitz, tackle, and deflate.  We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending the goalline.  You use them as a punchline.  I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps in a Dolphins jersey that I donated to a radio contest, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.  I would rather you just said thank you and went and bought season tickets as well.  Otherwise, I suggest you put on a helmet and tryout.  Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

I'm not sure it was Philbin more likely the lineman coach.  Head coaches are pretty smart to delegate those sorts of requests.

[newtogolf]

The primary problem is that not all people get motivated the same way. You just can't scream, bully, harass a player and think it works for everyone. Just because they don't respond the same doesn't mean they are not going to cut it either.  In the end you can take an amazing talent, who could possible be a dominant player under the right motivation. Just not the ignorant coaching style some coaches think works. To think just because they didn't get motivated from negative motivation means they are not mentally tough is BS.

Proper coaching takes both the stick and the carrot motivation methods. Good play needs to be rewarded, and poor play doesn't. In no way does poor play mean you need to get your leaders on the team to bully the player. Good teams form good positive relationships between the players.

Look at Miami's record over the past decade. They are a sub-500 team. Clearly their methods are not working.

Football is pretty barbaric, there aren't a lot of touchy feely coaches out there who will sit down with you to try to figure out what motivates you.  They figure if getting your ass handed to you during practice, being forced to run sidelines when you screw up and double practices in 90* temps doesn't get you motivated then more of it will or you quit.

I don't think the mentality is that far off from what I understand the military does during basic training.

[saevel25]

Football is pretty barbaric, there aren't a lot of touchy feely coaches out there who will sit down with you to try to figure out what motivates you.  They figure if getting your ass handed to you during practice, being forced to run sidelines when you screw up and double practices in 90* temps doesn't get you motivated then more of it will or you quit.

I don't think the mentality is that far off from what I understand the military does during basic training.

It's simple. Motivation is split into two things. Reward and Punishment. Read the book, "lead for god' sake". It was recommended by Urban Meyer who is ahead of his time in the way he coaches. Is he intense, yes. Does he yell, yes. Does he bully players, no. There is a fine line. Incognito crossed it.

Still there are coaches who will not scream at you at all and will have great success in sports. Its knowing the pulse of the team and what players you have. To throw every player under the barbaric old school bully mentality that happens in football is just stupid.

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

The primary problem is that not all people get motivated the same way. You just can't scream, bully, harass a player and think it works for everyone. Just because they don't respond the same doesn't mean they are not going to cut it either.  In the end you can take an amazing talent, who could possible be a dominant player under the right motivation. Just not the ignorant coaching style some coaches think works. To think just because they didn't get motivated from negative motivation means they are not mentally tough is BS.

Proper coaching takes both the stick and the carrot motivation methods. Good play needs to be rewarded, and poor play doesn't. In no way does poor play mean you need to get your leaders on the team to bully the player. Good teams form good positive relationships between the players.

Look at Miami's record over the past decade. They are a sub-500 team. Clearly their methods are not working.

Football is pretty barbaric, there aren't a lot of touchy feely coaches out there who will sit down with you to try to figure out what motivates you.  They figure if getting your ass handed to you during practice, being forced to run sidelines when you screw up and double practices in 90* temps doesn't get you motivated then more of it will or you quit.

I don't think the mentality is that far off from what I understand the military does during basic training.

Yeah, I don't think the Stuart Smalley type coaches (or the players who require that kind of treatment) last long in football.  At ANY level beyond maybe Mighty Mites.  Even in high school our coaches would smack us upside the helmet to get our attention, or grab us by the facemask and throw us to the ground if we jumped offsides or weren't giving it our all.  They got in our faces and chewed our asses hard if we were slacking off or making dumb mistakes.  We never considered stuff like that "abuse" - any of us.  They were tough men teaching us a tough game.

I lament the era we're in now, with so many soft people who are so easily offended or "abused".  "Kinder and gentler" doesn't build character, it makes for weak people with (at best) very tenuous and fragile self-esteem, and no motivation to push their limits because mediocrity is treated the same as excellence.  Everybody gets a trophy!

[newtogolf]

Yeah, I don't think the Stuart Smalley type coaches (or the players who require that kind of treatment) last long in football.  At ANY level beyond maybe Mighty Mites.  Even in high school our coaches would smack us upside the helmet to get our attention, or grab us by the facemask and throw us to the ground if we jumped offsides or weren't giving it our all.  They got in our faces and chewed our asses hard if we were slacking off or making dumb mistakes.  We never considered stuff like that "abuse" - any of us.  They were tough men teaching us a tough game.

I lament the era we're in now, with so many soft people who are so easily offended or "abused".  "Kinder and gentler" doesn't build character, it makes for weak people with (at best) very tenuous and fragile self-esteem, and no motivation to push their limits because mediocrity is treated the same as excellence.  Everybody gets a trophy!

I'm conflicted because I look back on my years playing football and think I'd be upset if a coach did that stuff to my son but I believe that having gone through it, I am tougher and stronger mentally and physically.  These past two weeks would be "Hell Week" in H.S. and college.  We'd have 2 a day practices where we'd run with pads on until we puked.  Then we'd get some water and run some more.  I remember being too tired to eat most nights and just showering and going to bed.

Time will tell if the old ways were better or not.

[Golfingdad]

Yeah, I don't think the Stuart Smalley type coaches (or the players who require that kind of treatment) last long in football.  At ANY level beyond maybe Mighty Mites.  Even in high school our coaches would smack us upside the helmet to get our attention, or grab us by the facemask and throw us to the ground if we jumped offsides or weren't giving it our all.  They got in our faces and chewed our asses hard if we were slacking off or making dumb mistakes.  We never considered stuff like that "abuse" - any of us.  They were tough men teaching us a tough game.

I lament the era we're in now, with so many soft people who are so easily offended or "abused".  "Kinder and gentler" doesn't build character, it makes for weak people with (at best) very tenuous and fragile self-esteem, and no motivation to push their limits because mediocrity is treated the same as excellence.  Everybody gets a trophy!

I'm conflicted because I look back on my years playing football and think I'd be upset if a coach did that stuff to my son but I believe that having gone through it, I am tougher and stronger mentally and physically.  These past two weeks would be "Hell Week" in H.S. and college.  We'd have 2 a day practices where we'd run with pads on until we puked.  Then we'd get some water and run some more.  I remember being too tired to eat most nights and just showering and going to bed.

Time will tell if the old ways were better or not.

But don't you guys think that a guy who has made it all the way to the NFL has likely experienced all that you have and then some?  So if he has a problem with a particular player and his bullying, that its a safe bet it goes far deeper than just you're average rookie hazing or line coach yelling?

[Duff McGee]

The primary problem is that not all people get motivated the same way. You just can't scream, bully, harass a player and think it works for everyone. Just because they don't respond the same doesn't mean they are not going to cut it either.  In the end you can take an amazing talent, who could possible be a dominant player under the right motivation. Just not the ignorant coaching style some coaches think works. To think just because they didn't get motivated from negative motivation means they are not mentally tough is BS.  Proper coaching takes both the stick and the carrot motivation methods. Good play needs to be rewarded, and poor play doesn't. In no way does poor play mean you need to get your leaders on the team to bully the player. Good teams form good positive relationships between the players.   Look at Miami's record over the past decade. They are a sub-500 team. Clearly their methods are not working.

Yep. And I would like to point to my team (Seahawks) as an example of how the other kind of motivation works much better than threats and insults.

[Mac62]

But don't you guys think that a guy who has made it all the way to the NFL has likely experienced all that you have and then some?  So if he has a problem with a particular player and his bullying, that its a safe bet it goes far deeper than just you're average rookie hazing or line coach yelling?

Like I said before, there's no doubt that Richie Incognito is very politically incorrect and boisterous.  I don't know him personally, but from what we've learned about the whole thing, I'm sure some may go so far as to consider him an a-hole.  But I still don't buy it as "bullying".  He befriended Jonathan Martin - whether because the coaches told him to "toughen him up" or because he wanted to be a mentor to a guy he saw potential in, who knows?  It sounds like Jonathan Martin, by his own admission, put forth a "baller" personality and was slinging some false bravado around.  Maybe Richie saw a kindred spirit in that.  From reading the thousands of text messages exchanged between the two (and again, I read every one of them that were released by the media), Martin was just as complicit in the whole thing as Incognito was.  There was never any indication that he wasn't down with what they were doing, or that he was uncomfortable with the exchanges taking place between them.  From what I read, it's not much different than what you'd see between any two close friends who felt comfortable enough to sling crap back and forth between each other.  Even the voicemails which were alleged "threats" didn't seem near as sinister as they were made out to be.  It was Incognito talking shit, but IMO they didn't amount to real threats.

I think where it fell apart was that Martin couldn't live up to the "baller" image he had created. It wasn't who he really was and eventually the house of cards collapsed.  He was failing at football (struggling as a lineman, getting moved around on the line and lost his starting spot) and wanted out.  His daddy is a criminal justice professor and mommy is a lawyer, so he saw an opportunity to both get out of the NFL and maybe make some significant (lawsuit/settlement) money in the process (a lawsuit hasn't happened yet, but I certainly wouldn't rule the possibility out).

Ultimately, the NFL investigation said Incognito and two other linemen (both of whom are African-American, btw*) engaged in a "pattern of harassment" toward Martin.  "Harassment" is a little easier to swallow than "bullying", but I'm still of the opinion that Martin was a willing participant up until he wasn't cutting the mustard on the team and saw the writing on the wall.  It was a lot easier to quit by claiming harassment or bullying or whatever than it was to admit that he was a big wuss and not a very good football player at the NFL level (see Michael Sam for a similar example, albeit with slightly different circumstances).

(* I mention the race of the other two involved linemen only because while it may not have been specifically alleged by Martin, there were strong media inferences that there was a racial component to the entire scandal.)

TL;DR - Richie Incognito has a big mouth and plays rough with friends and teammates, but he isn't the ogre the NFL and the media have made him out to be.  He had some issues, but seems to have gotten them straightened out and I'm glad he's been given another chance and is succeeding so far in Buffalo.  I'd like to go have beers and talk some sh*t with him, he'd probably be a hoot.

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by saevel25

The primary problem is that not all people get motivated the same way. You just can't scream, bully, harass a player and think it works for everyone. Just because they don't respond the same doesn't mean they are not going to cut it either.  In the end you can take an amazing talent, who could possible be a dominant player under the right motivation. Just not the ignorant coaching style some coaches think works. To think just because they didn't get motivated from negative motivation means they are not mentally tough is BS.

Proper coaching takes both the stick and the carrot motivation methods. Good play needs to be rewarded, and poor play doesn't. In no way does poor play mean you need to get your leaders on the team to bully the player. Good teams form good positive relationships between the players.

Look at Miami's record over the past decade. They are a sub-500 team. Clearly their methods are not working.

Yep. And I would like to point to my team (Seahawks) as an example of how the other kind of motivation works much better than threats and insults.

I have zero respect for Pete Carroll and/or the Seattle Seahawks.  They're a classic example of a completely undisciplined team.  They led the league last year in overall penalties and average penalties per game (Miami was #30 of 32 by comparison, since we've been discussing the Incognito/Martin situation).  Carroll lets Richard Sherman (and Baldwin, etc.) run their mouths like idiots and he condones Marshawn Lynch's ridiculous/bizarre antics.  They've been successful the last few years by a combination of raw talent and chemistry, but discipline of any kind is not part of the picture.  They're a bunch of loose cannons, much like Carroll's USC teams were.  Russell Wilson is the notable exception, but that's because of who Russell Wilson is as a person.

If you want to point to the Seahawks as an example of how complete lack of discipline can lead to motivation/success, you hit the nail squarely on the head.  But I'd submit the New England Patriots as an opposing example of how players flourish and succeed under very strict discipline (and they're nowhere near a sub-.500 team for the past decade - one sub-.500 season (in 2000), AFC champions 3 times, Super Bowl champions twice, whereas 40% of the Seahawks' seasons have been sub-.500 in the past decade.).  I'm not a New England fan, but I do respect Belichick as a coach who knows how to maintain discipline and run a team.  He benched his star running back for almost the entire post-season and the Super Bowl last year because he overslept his alarm and was late for practice one day.  His comment afterward?  "We do what we think is best. That's what we did today."  I'd say his motivation and success speaks for itself.  His players respect him and play hard for him, and there's probably no stricter disciplinarian in the league.  They understand that he doesn't tolerate crap - get with the program or you'll be looking for another team, no matter who you are (or think you are).

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Incognito claimed he was told by the coaches to toughen Martin up

So you're saying that Joe Philbin ordered the Code Red?

"We live in a world that has goallines.  Who's going to protect those goallines?  You?  You @saevel25 ??  I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.  You weep for Martin and you curse the Dolphins.  You have that luxury.  The luxury of not knowing what I know.  That Martins bullying, while tragic, probably saved games.  And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you - and all other Dolphins fans - saves games.  You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at tailgates, you want me on that sideline, you need me on that sideline.  We use words like blitz, tackle, and deflate.  We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending the goalline.  You use them as a punchline.  I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps in a Dolphins jersey that I donated to a radio contest, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.  I would rather you just said thank you and went and bought season tickets as well.  Otherwise, I suggest you put on a helmet and tryout.  Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

Awesome!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

So you're saying that Joe Philbin ordered the Code Red?

"We live in a world that has goallines.  Who's going to protect those goallines?  You?  You @saevel25 ??  I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.  You weep for Martin and you curse the Dolphins.  You have that luxury.  The luxury of not knowing what I know.  That Martins bullying, while tragic, probably saved games.

Wins since 2002: 9, 10, 4, 9, 6, 1, 11, 7, 7, 6, 7, 8, 8

Saved games? Looks pretty average to me :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

You use them as a punchline.  I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps in a Dolphins jersey that I donated to a radio contest, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.

I would be wearing a Dallas Cowboy's jersey

You do realize that @Golfingdad was doing a parody of A Few Good Men , right?

[saevel25]

I have zero respect for Pete Carroll and/or the Seattle Seahawks.  They're a classic example of a completely undisciplined team.  They led the league last year in overall penalties and average penalties per game (Miami was #30 of 32 by comparison, since we've been discussing the Incognito/Martin situation).  Carroll lets Richard Sherman (and Baldwin, etc.) run their mouths like idiots and he condones Marshawn Lynch's ridiculous/bizarre antics.  They've been successful the last few years by a combination of raw talent and chemistry, but discipline of any kind is not part of the picture.  They're a bunch of loose cannons, much like Carroll's USC teams were.  Russell Wilson is the notable exception, but that's because of who Russell Wilson is as a person.

Penalties are overrated. I bet Miami fans would rather have a few more penalties and a superbowl.

If you want to point to the Seahawks as an example of how complete lack of discipline can lead to motivation/success, you hit the nail squarely on the head.  But I'd submit the New England Patriots as an opposing example of how players flourish and succeed under very strict discipline (and they're nowhere near a sub-.500 team for the past decade - one sub-.500 season (in 2000), AFC champions 3 times, Super Bowl champions twice, whereas 40% of the Seahawks' seasons have been sub-.500 in the past decade.).  I'm not a New England fan, but I do respect Belichick as a coach who knows how to maintain discipline and run a team.  He benched his star running back for almost the entire post-season and the Super Bowl last year because he overslept his alarm and was late for practice one day.  His comment afterward?  "We do what we think is best. That's what we did today."  I'd say his motivation and success speaks for itself.  His players respect him and play hard for him, and there's probably no stricter disciplinarian in the league.  They understand that he doesn't tolerate crap - get with the program or you'll be looking for another team, no matter who you are (or think you are).

Strict and bullying are not the same thing. You can have consequences for the players, and performance based rewards with out the need to use the bully method of trying to toughen  up the players.

I never talked about being stricts. I never talked about Seattle. I talked about Incognito being a bully and how that form of motivation is not very sustainable or useful.

You do realize that @Golfingdad was doing a parody of A Few Good Men, right?

Absolutely ;)

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Incognito claimed he was told by the coaches to toughen Martin up

So you're saying that Joe Philbin ordered the Code Red?

"We live in a world that has goallines.  Who's going to protect those goallines?  You?  You @saevel25 ??  I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.  You weep for Martin and you curse the Dolphins.  You have that luxury.  The luxury of not knowing what I know.  That Martins bullying, while tragic, probably saved games.  And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you - and all other Dolphins fans - saves games.  You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at tailgates, you want me on that sideline, you need me on that sideline.  We use words like blitz, tackle, and deflate.  We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending the goalline.  You use them as a punchline.  I have neither the time, nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps in a Dolphins jersey that I donated to a radio contest, and then questions the manner in which I provided it.  I would rather you just said thank you and went and bought season tickets as well.  Otherwise, I suggest you put on a helmet and tryout.  Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

Well played, sir!

[Duff McGee]

Haha Jonas Gray is not a star RB by any stretch of the imagination and the Patriots are cheaters AND picked up a real punk in Blount who is the epitome of a classless loser. Sherman is a good person. Sorry you live in the age of dinosaurs but he is from Compton and is not a criminal, unlike Blount. Sherman went to Stanford over USC bc he wanted to prove that he had both physical talent AND a brain. Edit: also, Pete Carroll and John Schnieder DO punish players far worse than any other organization. How you ask? We cut or trade your ass if you are an issue. Percy Harvin anyone? If you don't fit, you are out. We cut high draft picks, big trades, etc. Players shouldn't need fake motivation like running laps or being benched. Either you are a team player or you go work for someone else or nowhere at all. We reward players based on performance and how they fit the team. We have so many undrafted players it's not even funny.

[Golfingdad]

I'm not sure it was Philbin more likely the lineman coach.  Head coaches are pretty smart to delegate those sorts of requests.

Yeah, I'm sure that Philbin told all of his players to leave Martin alone AND probably also recommended to the GM that he be traded.  To that I say:

"Why the two orders?  Coach??"

(I'd keep going, but I think you all get the gist. ;))

[Mac62]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac62

I have zero respect for Pete Carroll and/or the Seattle Seahawks.  They're a classic example of a completely undisciplined team.  They led the league last year in overall penalties and average penalties per game (Miami was #30 of 32 by comparison, since we've been discussing the Incognito/Martin situation).  Carroll lets Richard Sherman (and Baldwin, etc.) run their mouths like idiots and he condones Marshawn Lynch's ridiculous/bizarre antics.  They've been successful the last few years by a combination of raw talent and chemistry, but discipline of any kind is not part of the picture.  They're a bunch of loose cannons, much like Carroll's USC teams were.  Russell Wilson is the notable exception, but that's because of who Russell Wilson is as a person.

Penalties are overrated. I bet Miami fans would rather have a few more penalties and a superbowl.

Without a doubt.  I was just referring to the penalties in terms of overall team discipline (or lack thereof).  Yeah, head coaches don't keep their jobs by going 1-15 but having minimal penalties, that's not much to hang your hat on!

(BTW, in case it wasn't clear, that response wasn't directed at you.  I quoted Duff (who brought up Seattle) and was responding to him, but left your content in there just to retain context.  Sorry if it created confusion.)