Club postion behind ball affecting ball flight?

[RussUK]

Afternoon all,

I have a question and was wondering if anyone could explain why or how something happens.

For the past 2 months I have been switching to a single axis swing (kirk Junge version) which has been a success so far. Its simpler nature suits me and as I get better contact im hitting further and straighter.

Ball flight with wedges, short and mid irons is straight, hybrids are a nice high fade and my woods are straight.

Now everytime I go to the range a leave 5-10 balls to “experiment” with and the last 2 sessions I tried setting the club about 4-6 inches behind the ball with irons and hybrids. The result was a low draw.

My question is could the club being set back from the ball do this or is it more of a coincidence?

I know Moe Norman set his WAY back from the ball but he hit straight. Its nice to be able to draw as my home course has a few dogleg rights so it may be a beneficial by by-product of something im doing.

On the whole though im happy with my progress. Golf can be fun!

Thanks guys

Russ

[vangator]

Could be as simple as you have your face aligned square behind the ball but as you swing, the club will naturally turn over in your hands so that at impact the face is pointing left. Notice Moe really exaggerated his follow through and kept his face square for a long time. I've heard Jim Furyk keeps his face square longer than any current pro. Maybe that's why his in contention in his mid forties.

[mvmac]

Now everytime I go to the range a leave 5-10 balls to “experiment” with and the last 2 sessions I tried setting the club about 4-6 inches behind the ball with irons and hybrids. The result was a low draw.

Could be as simple as you have your face aligned square behind the ball but as you swing, the club will naturally turn over in your hands so that at impact the face is pointing left.

Yes I'm thinking it's resulting in more of a pull draw.

I've heard Jim Furyk keeps his face square longer than any current pro.

He doesn't, the face doesn't "stay square". It's moving on an arc and the face is rotating or "closing" because of the motion of your forearms/hands/torso. Even if you could keep it "square", it really wouldn't make a difference, the ball is already gone

[RussUK]

Yes I'm thinking it's resulting in more of a pull draw.

Pull draw sounds a good match to the ball flight, whatever it is its a usable enough option form me. Doenst seem to work on the driver though

[mvmac]

Pull draw sounds a good match to the ball flight, whatever it is its a usable enough option form me. Doenst seem to work on the driver though

A pull draw can be a playable pattern.

[RussUK]

A pull draw can be a playable pattern.

Thanks Mike, if, say, i want to use that pattern to avoid something on the right e.g. the trees my home course has in abundance, would it be worth actually aiming towards them a little then lettinf the ball curve back left or just aim straight to the target or is aiming towards the danger a bit asking for trouble?

Like i said i can play a controlable fade with my long irons/hybrids but its always good to have options.

[Ernest Jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussUK

Pull draw sounds a good match to the ball flight, whatever it is its a usable enough option form me. Doenst seem to work on the driver though

A pull draw can be a playable pattern.

Unless your miss is a push, in which case, good luck with that.

[mvmac]

Thanks Mike, if, say, i want to use that pattern to avoid something on the right e.g. the trees my home course has in abundance, would it be worth actually aiming towards them a little then lettinf the ball curve back left or just aim straight to the target or is aiming towards the danger a bit asking for trouble?

Depends on what you're comfortable with. Some players like to swing towards the trouble to make the ball curve away from it.

The point is to have a ball flight pattern where 95% of those shots fit into the pattern. So if you typically play a fade and feel comfortable with it, stick with the fade. If you want to play a slight pull draw, then play it for most of your shots.

[RussUK]

Depends on what you're comfortable with. Some players like to swing towards the trouble to make the ball curve away from it.

The point is to have a ball flight pattern where 95% of those shots fit into the pattern. So if you typically play a fade and feel comfortable with it, stick with the fade. If you want to play a slight pull draw, then play it for most of your shots.

Fade it is then. Thanks for the advice

[vangator]

Yes I'm thinking it's resulting in more of a pull draw.  He doesn't, the face doesn't "stay square". It's moving on an arc and the face is rotating or "closing" because of the motion of your forearms/hands/torso. Even if you could keep it "square", it really wouldn't make a difference, the ball is already gone ;-)

I know the ball is only making contact momentarily, but a clubface that stays square longer (before and after normal striking position) increases the chance the. face will be square at impact. More margin for error.

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mvmac

A pull draw can be a playable pattern.

Thanks Mike, if, say, i want to use that pattern to avoid something on the right e.g. the trees my home course has in abundance, would it be worth actually aiming towards them a little then lettinf the ball curve back left or just aim straight to the target or is aiming towards the danger a bit asking for trouble?

Like i said i can play a controlable fade with my long irons/hybrids but its always good to have options.

IDK how controllable a fade is. I just hit an 8i approach from 155 this morning and it faded then towards the end of the flight sliced deep left into a tree bounced off and landed left of the green side bunker. I was aiming for the green about 25 yards right and did not really intend to hit that fade/slice

OTOH, my draw is a lot more controllable when I am able to conjure one up. This shot rarely goes off line the way a fade can turn into a slice.

I was unintentionally hitting "power fade" drives all weekend on the driving range trying to tame my driver. The fades would go anywhere from 10 yards off line to 70 yards off line. I hit a couple of these on the second and third holes this morning, and decided to make two major changes: close the face a little bit; and look for where the club hits the ground then move back until the divot was slightly in front of the ball of a teed up ball. I was hoping to find where the club is starting to go up again. This turned my fade/slice into a consistent draw. Albeit a low penetrating draw, it was a draw. The low part is probably because of the X100 shaft. My drives for the remaining 5 holes that used a driver were decent. Tried the same thing with my irons. When I didn't fat the shot, the ball made a nice true low penetrating draw flight. Again the low part is because I have KBS Tour Xstiff shafts.

My conclusion is that I can't control a fade that well. I'm not implying that you can't, but it seems very difficult to control how much fade you get unless you are a really good player. A draw on the other hand appears to happen pretty consistently when setup to do so even for someone like me.

[iacas]

I know the ball is only making contact momentarily, but a clubface that stays square longer (before and after normal striking position) increases the chance the. face will be square at impact. More margin for error.

No clubface really "stays square longer." There's a "rate of closure" in every normal golf swing during the impact interval (ignoring the ball, which can of course momentarily stop or even reverse it), and it's never 0. In fact, the numbers are in the thousands of degrees per second from what I've seen.

I do like to "minimize" rate of closure somewhat, in some players (though of course you can have the same rate of closure relative to distance and if you swing faster, a higher degrees per TIME measurement), but it's never zero or really anything close to zero.

[vangator]

No clubface really "stays square longer." There's a "rate of closure" in every normal golf swing during the impact interval (ignoring the ball, which can of course momentarily stop or even reverse it), and it's never 0. In fact, the numbers are in the thousands of degrees per second from what I've seen. I do like to "minimize" rate of closure somewhat, in some players (though of course you can have the same rate of closure relative to distance and if you swing faster, a higher degrees per TIME measurement), but it's never zero or really anything close to zero.

I think what you're saying is what really happens. I know I've heard that Moe Normans strength was his ability to keep his club face square for a long time. With his swing, anything was possible.

[iacas]

I think what you're saying is what really happens. I know I've heard that Moe Normans strength was his ability to keep his club face square for a long time. With his swing, anything was possible.

Moe, like everyone else, rotated the clubface during the impact interval.

[shortstop20]

IDK how controllable a fade is. I just hit an 8i approach from 155 this morning and it faded then towards the end of the flight sliced deep left into a tree bounced off and landed left of the green side bunker. I was aiming for the green about 25 yards right and did not really intend to hit that fade/slice

OTOH, my draw is a lot more controllable when I am able to conjure one up. This shot rarely goes off line the way a fade can turn into a slice.

I was unintentionally hitting "power fade" drives all weekend on the driving range trying to tame my driver. The fades would go anywhere from 10 yards off line to 70 yards off line. I hit a couple of these on the second and third holes this morning, and decided to make two major changes: close the face a little bit; and look for where the club hits the ground then move back until the divot was slightly in front of the ball of a teed up ball. I was hoping to find where the club is starting to go up again. This turned my fade/slice into a consistent draw. Albeit a low penetrating draw, it was a draw. The low part is probably because of the X100 shaft. My drives for the remaining 5 holes that used a driver were decent. Tried the same thing with my irons. When I didn't fat the shot, the ball made a nice true low penetrating draw flight. Again the low part is because I have KBS Tour Xstiff shafts.

My conclusion is that I can't control a fade that well. I'm not implying that you can't, but it seems very difficult to control how much fade you get unless you are a really good player. A draw on the other hand appears to happen pretty consistently when setup to do so even for someone like me.

This all comes down to the player and their pattern. There's been times I could control a fade and not a draw and vice versa.

No shot is inherently easier to control, it's just sidespin after all! :)

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/80554/club-postion-behind-ball-affecting-ball-flight#post_1113299"]   IDK how controllable a fade is. I just hit an 8i approach from 155 this morning and it faded then towards the end of the flight sliced deep left into a tree bounced off and landed left of the green side bunker. I was aiming for the green about 25 yards right and did not really intend to hit that fade/slice OTOH, my draw is a lot more controllable when I am able to conjure one up. This shot rarely goes off line the way a fade can turn into a slice. I was unintentionally hitting "power fade" drives all weekend on the driving range trying to tame my driver. The fades would go anywhere from 10 yards off line to 70 yards off line. I hit a couple of these on the second and third holes this morning, and decided to make two major changes: close the face a little bit; and look for where the club hits the ground then move back until the divot was slightly in front of the ball of a teed up ball. I was hoping to find where the club is starting to go up again. This turned my fade/slice into a consistent draw. Albeit a low penetrating draw, it was a draw. The low part is probably because of the X100 shaft. My drives for the remaining 5 holes that used a driver were decent. Tried the same thing with my irons. When I didn't fat the shot, the ball made a nice true low penetrating draw flight. Again the low part is because I have KBS Tour Xstiff shafts. My conclusion is that I can't control a fade that well. I'm not implying that you can't, but it seems very difficult to control how much fade you get unless you are a really good player. A draw on the other hand appears to happen pretty consistently when setup to do so even for someone like me. [/QUOTE] This all comes down to the player and their pattern. There's been times I could control a fade and not a draw and vice versa.  No shot is inherently easier to control, it's just sidespin after all! :)

When you say pattern, do you mean the path of their swing?

[shortstop20]

When you say pattern, do you mean the path of their swing?

Yes, among other things, like face control.

[Lihu]

[QUOTE name="Lihu" url="/t/80554/club-postion-behind-bait's ll-affecting-ball-flight#post_1115673"] When you say pattern, do you mean the path of their swing?[/QUOTE] Yes, among other things, like face control.

That might be a little more advanced? It seems like once you have a good inside out swing, then you can pretty much make a controllable fade following the flight laws. Otherwise, it's potentially going to give you unpredictable results. Is this the case?