Virtual Certainty

[GolfLug]

Because your ball may not be out of bounds. Some of the rough areas you can just hit into and you know your ball is in there. You find it most of the time, but you can't be hitting provisionals all the time, otherwise you're picking those up if you find your other ball. Suppose you hit the provisional on the other side of the fairway and there are people behind you waiting? There's casual play and medal play. Let's face reality.

I hear you and sympathize completely. Been in the situation where we were already pushed a bit, then lost time looking for the ball and then had to go re-tee. The marshal about had had it (he was already stalking us before the incidence) when two entire foursome had already congregated at the tee and we were just getting our second shots out. I now hit a provisional with even half a doubtful thought. I think it would be best not to post the round if you deviate.

BTW, love the term 'virtual certainty' - almost an oxymoron.

[newtogolf]

That's the first time I've ever heard a pace of play argument for not hitting a provisional!

You make the decision whether you want to play by the rules or not.  If you do, then you will play more provisional balls than the average player.  It takes a few seconds to play one.  It takes a few seconds to pick it up if you find the original ball.  Your choice.

That is because they are assuming you just drop one where you think your ball ended up instead of driving or walking back to the tee box to hit another one.

Basically the pace of play argument wins if you break the rules.

I can get a bit wild off the tee so if my playing partners or I didn't see it land someplace where we'd be 100% certain to find it, I'll hit a provisional.  It takes less than a minute and completely eliminates the need to go back to the tee box if the first ball is lost.  As for picking it up, if you play with a cart, the time to go pick it up is negligible.

I see a lot of people use the drop rule for lost balls, if you don't post scores or it's not a tournament I don't care (unless you're competing against me I don't care at all) but it's not playing by the rules.

[David in FL]

I hear you and sympathize completely. Been in the situation where we were already pushed a bit, then lost time looking for the ball and then had to go re-tee. The marshal about had had it (he was already stalking us before the incidence) when two entire foursome had already congregated at the tee and we were just getting our second shots out. I now hit a provisional with even half a doubtful thought. I think it would be best not to post the round if you deviate. BTW, love the term 'virtual certainty' - almost an oxymoron.

Not intended to pick on you, but this is a great time to mention that it doesn't matter at all if a group is waiting on you, as long as your group is in it's correct position, directly behind the group in front of you. It's only when you've already gotten out of position, that little things like the additional time that it might take to pick up an unneeded provisional becomes annoying.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

You don't end up hitting a provision b/c you are certain you can find it.   Don't tell me you have never done that.  Also, hitting lots of provisions on busy weekend day when all the tee times are fully booked is not being looked kindly.

Sure, every great once in a while, you might be sure you can find it and not be able to, but that should be the rare exception.

I have never experienced anyone looking down on hitting a provisional.  In fact, people are happy it's being done.  But hey, if your course is different, feel free to just take a drop.  As you did not play the hole under the Rules of Golf, the score on the hole you turn in for handicap purposes should be par + whatever handicap strokes you would have received. In tournament play, you'll simply have to accept being DQ'd every time because you didn't want to hit a provisional or go back to the tee.

It is.   I almost always hit a provisional ball.   It's the one that I was sure I can find but later can't.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

You don't end up hitting a provision b/c you are certain you can find it.   Don't tell me you have never done that.  Also, hitting lots of provisions on busy weekend day when all the tee times are fully booked is not being looked kindly.

Sure, every great once in a while, you might be sure you can find it and not be able to, but that should be the rare exception.

I have never experienced anyone looking down on hitting a provisional.  In fact, people are happy it's being done.  But hey, if your course is different, feel free to just take a drop.  As you did not play the hole under the Rules of Golf, the score on the hole you turn in for handicap purposes should be par + whatever handicap strokes you would have received. In tournament play, you'll simply have to accept being DQ'd every time because you didn't want to hit a provisional or go back to the tee.

It is.   I almost always hit a provisional ball.   It's the one that I was sure I can find but later can't.

We all run into this, and even if you are playing for handicap the rules allow for it.  If keeping a good pace of play means that you drop instead of returning to the previous spot, then as per the handicap manual, that is a "hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf", and for handicap you score par plus any handicap strokes you are allowed on that hole.  For your group wager, you can still get close to a real score by giving yourself an imaginary stroke and distance penalty by adding 2 strokes where you drop.

[GolfLug]

Not intended to pick on you, but this is a great time to mention that it doesn't matter at all if a group is waiting on you, as long as your group is in it's correct position, directly behind the group in front of you. It's only when you've already gotten out of position, that little things like the additional time that it might take to pick up an unneeded provisional becomes annoying.

Agreed boss! Life happens and many a times you bring it on yourself (as in the case I stated). As I also stated, it actually made a good learning experience for me to hit provisional unless I was absolutely 'virtually' certain. Takes a few seconds compared to the trek back and forth for a re-tee. Stating a worst case scenario to make a case for it.

OT: And, yes also a learning experience for some in our group to keep up. Honestly that part of the situation wanted to make me go home and hide in a closet. Of course, I didn't but you know what I mean.

[GolfLug]

We all run into this, and even if you are playing for handicap the rules allow for it.  If keeping a good pace of play means that you drop instead of returning to the previous spot, then as per the handicap manual, that is a "hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf", and for handicap you score par plus any handicap strokes you are allowed on that hole.  For your group wager, you can still get close to a real score by giving yourself an imaginary stroke and distance penalty by adding 2 strokes where you drop.

Thanks, very useful info.

[djfajt71]

Sure, every great once in a while, you might be sure you can find it and not be able to, but that should be the rare exception.

I have found that, depending on the area of country and time of year, it may not be all that rare.  When I was in SW Pa last year, my brother and I played a couple of rounds and we had the worst time finding our shots b/c of all the fallen leaves.  This may not be an issue at some better courses that take better care.  I know the course we played seemed to like the "rustic and natural look" of the fallen leaves everywhere.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

You don't end up hitting a provision b/c you are certain you can find it.   Don't tell me you have never done that.  Also, hitting lots of provisions on busy weekend day when all the tee times are fully booked is not being looked kindly.

Sure, every great once in a while, you might be sure you can find it and not be able to, but that should be the rare exception.

I have never experienced anyone looking down on hitting a provisional.  In fact, people are happy it's being done.  But hey, if your course is different, feel free to just take a drop.  As you did not play the hole under the Rules of Golf, the score on the hole you turn in for handicap purposes should be par + whatever handicap strokes you would have received. In tournament play, you'll simply have to accept being DQ'd every time because you didn't want to hit a provisional or go back to the tee.

It is.   I almost always hit a provisional ball.   It's the one that I was sure I can find but later can't.

We all run into this, and even if you are playing for handicap the rules allow for it.  If keeping a good pace of play means that you drop instead of returning to the previous spot, then as per the handicap manual, that is a "hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf", and for handicap you score par plus any handicap strokes you are allowed on that hole.  For your group wager, you can still get close to a real score by giving yourself an imaginary stroke and distance penalty by adding 2 strokes where you drop.

I feel guilty doing that.   If I can't find the ball, it's likely in a bad place where I can't really get a Par + ESC stroke.  That's why I hit provision balls but on a rare occasion that I can't find the ball, I have been adding 2 stroke penalty "where you drop."   That's the honest play based on my playing ability but I will follow the above rule going forward.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadesworld

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

You don't end up hitting a provision b/c you are certain you can find it.   Don't tell me you have never done that.  Also, hitting lots of provisions on busy weekend day when all the tee times are fully booked is not being looked kindly.

Sure, every great once in a while, you might be sure you can find it and not be able to, but that should be the rare exception.

I have never experienced anyone looking down on hitting a provisional.  In fact, people are happy it's being done.  But hey, if your course is different, feel free to just take a drop.  As you did not play the hole under the Rules of Golf, the score on the hole you turn in for handicap purposes should be par + whatever handicap strokes you would have received. In tournament play, you'll simply have to accept being DQ'd every time because you didn't want to hit a provisional or go back to the tee.

It is.   I almost always hit a provisional ball.   It's the one that I was sure I can find but later can't.

We all run into this, and even if you are playing for handicap the rules allow for it.  If keeping a good pace of play means that you drop instead of returning to the previous spot, then as per the handicap manual, that is a "hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf", and for handicap you score par plus any handicap strokes you are allowed on that hole.  For your group wager, you can still get close to a real score by giving yourself an imaginary stroke and distance penalty by adding 2 strokes where you drop.

I feel guilty doing that.   If I can't find the ball, it's likely in a bad place where I can't really get a Par + ESC stroke.  That's why I hit provision balls but on a rare occasion that I can't find the ball, I have been adding 2 stroke penalty "where you drop."   That's the honest play based on my playing ability but I will follow the above rule going forward.

The reason for scoring par plus handicap strokes allowed for that hole is so that the player isn't given carte blanche to inflate his handicap.  There are players who would take advantage of such a policy.  In theory, the handicap system assumes that this will be a rare circumstance, not the sort of thing a responsible golfer does several times in a round.

[DaveP043]

We all run into this, and even if you are playing for handicap the rules allow for it.  If keeping a good pace of play means that you drop instead of returning to the previous spot, then as per the handicap manual, that is a "hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf", and for handicap you score par plus any handicap strokes you are allowed on that hole.  For your group wager, you can still get close to a real score by giving yourself an imaginary stroke and distance penalty by adding 2 strokes where you drop.

For this situation, I'd suggest following the first paragraph of 4.1 in the Handicap Manual.  For a hole started but not completed.  the player should record the most likely score. Although not a certainty, I'd bet that with a lost ball, the most likely score would be the ESC maximum, which might be a stroke or two more than par plus handicap strokes.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

We all run into this, and even if you are playing for handicap the rules allow for it.  If keeping a good pace of play means that you drop instead of returning to the previous spot, then as per the handicap manual, that is a "hole not played under the principles of the rules of golf", and for handicap you score par plus any handicap strokes you are allowed on that hole.  For your group wager, you can still get close to a real score by giving yourself an imaginary stroke and distance penalty by adding 2 strokes where you drop.

For this situation, I'd suggest following the first paragraph of 4.1 in the Handicap Manual.  For a hole started but not completed.  the player should record the most likely score.  Although not a certainty, I'd bet that with a lost ball, the most likely score would be the ESC maximum, which might be a stroke or two more than par plus handicap strokes.

The manual is very specific about holes not played under the rules.  Again, the reason is so that the player doesn't obtain a handicap benefit for breaching a rule of golf.

[DrvFrShow]

Exactly. In most situations, if the ball is lost during play I take a two stroke penalty from where I saw it go into the "lost place" and play from there. That's my imaginary stroke and distance. It does DQ from competitions, but it does still allow for handicap reporting.

The most likely score is not necessarily the ESC maximum either. It is the ESC maximum for a decent golfer - decent is also relative since I consider anyone who shoots in the 80s or better decent. But a lot of the time I'll be looking at my round and see a streak of 7 bogeys a par and a DB under RoG, and I don't think reporting ESC of 8 on a par 4 is appropriate since I could still take S&D; and hit a DB easily.

[DaveP043]

fourputt, I understand your point.  I went back and read both rules (4.1 and 4.2) the two decisions, and I don't see that this situation falls clearly in one camp or the other.  The example used for rule 4.1 discusses a conceded stroke, while the example for 4.2 discusses a hole not played because a green is under construction.  In my interpretation, when he chose not to replay the shot that resulted in a lost ball, he's decided not to finish the hole.  Its interesting in that one rule would allow the ESC score, while the other would use par plus handicap, which would probably be lower.  It might be interesting to email the USGA and find out what they would say.

[DaveP043]

The most likely score is not necessarily the ESC maximum either. It is the ESC maximum for a decent golfer - decent is also relative since I consider anyone who shoots in the 80s or better decent. But a lot of the time I'll be looking at my round and see a streak of 7 bogeys a par and a DB under RoG, and I don't think reporting ESC of 8 on a par 4 is appropriate since I could still take S&D; and hit a DB easily.

You're right, I'm approaching this from my standpoint, that of a 7 handicap whose ESC is double-bogey.  Hypothetically, if the lost ball is from the tee on a par 3, the proper play under the rules would be hitting the 3rd shot from the tee.  For a 20 handicap, say, the most likely score could be 6 (4 strokes after the penalty).  Its up to the player to make his best judgement, in that case.  The most likely score would almost certainly not be 4, which would be the result under handicap rule 4.2.  As I said just above, in my opinion Rule 4.1 is the more appropriate rule in this circumstance, but I don't believe the rules and decisions are completely clear.

[rkim291968]

You're right, I'm approaching this from my standpoint, that of a 7 handicap whose ESC is double-bogey.  Hypothetically, if the lost ball is from the tee on a par 3, the proper play under the rules would be hitting the 3rd shot from the tee.  For a 20 handicap, say, the most likely score could be 6 (4 strokes after the penalty).  Its up to the player to make his best judgement, in that case.  The most likely score would almost certainly not be 4, which would be the result under handicap rule 4.2.  As I said just above, in my opinion Rule 4.1 is the more appropriate rule in this circumstance, but I don't believe the rules and decisions are completely clear.

If I go by FourPutt's suggestion, as a bogey golfer, I would be taking 5 instead of likely score of 7 (distance + penalty) on a typical par 4 hole.   This will prevent my HI from inflation but will not accurately reflect my "potential."   But I understand that these things (should) happen rarely that it won't make much difference in bigger scheme of things.

[DaveP043]

If I go by FourPutt's suggestion, as a bogey golfer, I would be taking 5 instead of likely score of 7 (distance + penalty) on a typical par 4 hole.   This will prevent my HI from inflation but will not accurately reflect my "potential."   But I understand that these things (should) happen rarely that it won't make much difference in bigger scheme of things.

In most cases, I suggest that rather than simply following fourputt's suggestion, or mine, you should review the rules yourself and make up your own mind.  In this case, the applicable rule from the USGA handicap manual is either 4.1 or 4.2:

http://usga.org/Rule-Books/Handicap-System-Manual/Rule-04/

On the right side of the page, you can click on the Decisions to get more guidance.  If you're really interested, you can email the USGA with your question.  I've done that a couple of times, and they usually respond within 10 days or so.

I'm certain that nobody knows every rule and every decision on the rules.  The best way to learn more about them is to look things up when a question arises.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveP043

You're right, I'm approaching this from my standpoint, that of a 7 handicap whose ESC is double-bogey.  Hypothetically, if the lost ball is from the tee on a par 3, the proper play under the rules would be hitting the 3rd shot from the tee.  For a 20 handicap, say, the most likely score could be 6 (4 strokes after the penalty).  Its up to the player to make his best judgement, in that case.  The most likely score would almost certainly not be 4, which would be the result under handicap rule 4.2.  As I said just above, in my opinion Rule 4.1 is the more appropriate rule in this circumstance, but I don't believe the rules and decisions are completely clear.

If I go by FourPutt's suggestion, as a bogey golfer, I would be taking 5 instead of likely score of 7 (distance + penalty) on a typical par 4 hole.   This will prevent my HI from inflation but will not accurately reflect my "potential."   But I understand that these things (should) happen rarely that it won't make much difference in bigger scheme of things.

Ah, but it does reflect your potential.  Your potential does not contemplate penalty strokes.  That bogey is your theoretical "norm" for that hole.