How would a scramble team fare in the US Open?

[GolfLug]

I was just reading a bit through "Every Shot Counts" and Brodie has a scenario similar to this one.

6500 yard course, PGA Tour pro plays "Two Worst-Ball", while a 90-golfer plays "Two Best-ball".

PGA Tour player would average a 78 for "Worst-Ball"

90-golfer would average 78 for "Best-Ball"

He has an 80-Golfer who plays "Best-Ball" would shoot a 70.

An 8 handicap, gets to play a scramble by himself on a 6500 yard course that Broadie describes as difficult (tight fairways) and tough green complexes and he would shoot on average a 70.

So you are taking 6-8 handicap golfers at 7200 yards, playing a four man scramble. I'm thinking they would do pretty good.

No doubt they would do well, even a top 10. But winning a US open is a stretch. Also, there are intangibles that numbers don't cover.

[rkim291968]

I was just reading a bit through "Every Shot Counts" and Brodie has a scenario similar to this one.

6500 yard course, PGA Tour pro plays "Two Worst-Ball", while a 90-golfer plays "Two Best-ball".

PGA Tour player would average a 78 for "Worst-Ball"

90-golfer would average 78 for "Best-Ball"

He has an 80-Golfer who plays "Best-Ball" would shoot a 70.

An 8 handicap, gets to play a scramble by himself on a 6500 yard course that Broadie describes as difficult (tight fairways) and tough green complexes and he would shoot on average a 70.

So you are taking 6-8 handicap golfers at 7200 yards, playing a four man scramble. I'm thinking they would do pretty good.

I think Brodie got this out of his imagination to market his product.  I am the 90-golfer and I would not average 78 playing for Best Ball.   I've tried it and didn't come close to "averaging" 78.   PGA tour would not average 78 playing worst ball for 6500 yard course using my common sense.

BTW, 6500 yard vs US Open course (7700? fast green, deep roughs, narrow fairways) is a heaven and hell difference for most amateurs.

[saevel25]

I think Brodie got this out of his imagination to market his product.  I am the 90-golfer and I would not average 78 playing for Best Ball.   I've tried it and didn't come close to "averaging" 78.   PGA tour would not average 78 playing worst ball for 6500 yard course using my common sense.

If you mean imagination = lots of actual data collected and run through a computer simulation to produce the average.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

I think Brodie got this out of his imagination to market his product.  I am the 90-golfer and I would not average 78 playing for Best Ball.   I've tried it and didn't come close to "averaging" 78.   PGA tour would not average 78 playing worst ball for 6500 yard course using my common sense.

If you mean imagination = lots of actual data collected and run through a computer simulation to produce the average.

I've seen too many self serving researches.   There things can be manipulated to suit the marketing need too easily, and too often.   One of my previous companies I worked for boasted fastest XYZ computer in the world and has data to back it up.  We all knew it was not so.    But I can offer my data for Brodie since I fit into 90-golfer perfectly.    I simply didn't see 12 stroke improvement by hitting the best of two balls.

BTW, to the original topic, a golfer hitting two shots in a row and picking the better ball vs 4 golfers hitting their 1st shot and picking the best ball of the 4 is different.  6500 yard vs 7700 yard US Open setting is vastly different.   So, I don't see the relevance of Brodie's experiment in this thread's context anyway.   Had he run the same experiment with the same amateur golfers in US Open setting, that 90 is going to be 110 and that 78 is going to be ???

[saevel25]

BTW, to the original topic, a golfer hitting two shots in a row and picking the better ball vs 4 golfers hitting their 1st shot and picking the best ball of the 4 is different.  6500 yard vs 7700 yard US Open setting is vastly different.   So, I don't see the relevance of Brodie's experiment in this thread's context anyway.   Had he run the same experiment with the same amateur golfers in US Open setting, that 90 is going to be 110 and that 78 is going to be ???

Better ball is a scramble format for one person. You play two shots, and take which you think is the best.

If you have a guy who is the average 6-handicap, and he plays 4 balls on each shot, and takes the best he is playing basically the equivalent of a 4 man scramble by himself.

That 78 would probably be near his handicap of 90. I was just showing that even, basically a two person scramble, can play a tougher course under their handicaps.

[jsgolfer]

According to the scorecard the course rating and slope are

Designed by	Robert Trent Jones, Jr.
Par	72
Length	7,585 yards (6,936 m)
Course rating	78.1 [1] (Teal)
Slope rating	146 [1] (Teal)

So the golfers would have to have an index between 4.3-6.5 to qualify for our test for the 6-8 handicaps.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

BTW, to the original topic, a golfer hitting two shots in a row and picking the better ball vs 4 golfers hitting their 1st shot and picking the best ball of the 4 is different.  6500 yard vs 7700 yard US Open setting is vastly different.   So, I don't see the relevance of Brodie's experiment in this thread's context anyway.   Had he run the same experiment with the same amateur golfers in US Open setting, that 90 is going to be 110 and that 78 is going to be ???

Better ball is a scramble format for one person. You play two shots, and take which you think is the best.

If you have a guy who is the average 6-handicap, and he plays 4 balls on each shot, and takes the best he is playing basically the equivalent of a 4 man scramble by himself.

That 78 would probably be near his handicap of 90. I was just showing that even, basically a two person scramble, can play a tougher course under their handicaps.

I know what better ball is and played a few times myself and in complete agreement with bold above.  I am a bit skeptical that I (or typical 90 golfer) can score 78 by playing two ball best ball.  I can probably play to 82 on average.   YMMV.

According to the scorecard the course rating and slope are

Designed by

Robert Trent Jones, Jr.

Par

72

Length

7,585 yards (6,936 m)

Course rating

78.1[1] (Teal)

Slope rating

146[1] (Teal)

So the golfers would have to have an index between 4.3-6.5 to qualify for our test for the 6-8 handicaps.

The course is changed to be harder than what the course rating is.   They would move the tee back, let the grass grow taller, fairway smaller, greens faster, etc..   In effect, our 6-8 handicappers will be likely playing the hardest course they ever seen, with crowds all around, with pressure to make the cut.    They are likely to flop on the 1st day.   My opinion, of course.

[jsgolfer]

I know what better ball is and played a few times myself and in complete agreement with bold above.  I am a bit skeptical that I (or typical 90 golfer) can score 78 by playing two ball best ball.  I can probably play to 82 on average.   YMMV.

The course is changed to be harder than what the course rating is.   They would move the tee back, let the grass grow taller, fairway smaller, greens faster, etc..   In effect, our 6-8 handicappers will be likely playing the hardest course they ever seen, with crowds all around, with pressure to make the cut.    They are likely to flop on the 1st day.   My opinion, of course.

Which would mean our golfers would have to have even a lower index to make the 6-8 handicap.

[saevel25]

The course is changed to be harder than what the course rating is.   They would move the tee back, let the grass grow taller, fairway smaller, greens faster, etc..   In effect, our 6-8 handicappers will be likely playing the hardest course they ever seen, with crowds all around, with pressure to make the cut.    They are likely to flop on the 1st day.   My opinion, of course.

That looks to be the US Open setting for the rating and slope.

Their official scorecard has the farthest tees (Navy colored) to be at 7165 with a rating of 75.6 and a slope of 139.

Hardest course, still you are having 4, good golfers, play a scramble format. That in itself is reassuring because it is a team format not individual.

The crowds could be an issue, but I bet the crowds would love an amateur scramble team on the course and would be cheering them on. I think that would fuel them positively. It's not like the crowd is judging them. I would love to see an amateur team play in the US Open.

Also in that regard I bet they wouldn't care about the cut because they get to play in the US Open, as a scramble. I mean come-on. Once in a lifetime opportunity. they are probably just happy to being teeing it up at the US Open. This isn't them trying to make a living here or actually making history by winning it. Maybe if it was the final day and the team was in contention they would start feeling more pressure.

I think the biggest pressure they would get is on the first hole, then they would just settle in.

[rkim291968]

According to the scorecard the course rating and slope are

Designed by

Robert Trent Jones, Jr.

Par

72

Length

7,585 yards (6,936 m)

Course rating

78.1[1] (Teal)

Slope rating

146[1] (Teal)

So the golfers would have to have an index between 4.3-6.5 to qualify for our test for the 6-8 handicaps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

The course is changed to be harder than what the course rating is.   They would move the tee back, let the grass grow taller, fairway smaller, greens faster, etc..   In effect, our 6-8 handicappers will be likely playing the hardest course they ever seen, with crowds all around, with pressure to make the cut.    They are likely to flop on the 1st day.   My opinion, of course.

Which would mean our gofers would have to have even a lower index to make the 6-8 handicap.

I went to two different websites to check this year's US Open yardage.   They are showing ~7800 yards for par 72.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_U.S._Open_%28golf%29  <---  wow!

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/why-us-open-will-be-best-major-2015/  --->   "The 7,742-yard (nope, not a typo, that’s 7,742) course will give Davis and Co. endless setup options. Although par is expected to be 70 for the championship, that number will very much be relative considering the first and 18th holes will alternately be played as either a par 4 or par 5, depending on the day and conditions."     7742 for par 70 ... hmmm.

[jsgolfer]

I went to two different websites to check this year's US Open yardage.   They are showing ~7800 yards for par 72.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_U.S._Open_%28golf%29  <---  wow!

http://www.golfchannel.com/news/golf-central-blog/why-us-open-will-be-best-major-2015/  --->   "The 7,742-yard (nope, not a typo, that’s 7,742) course will give Davis and Co. endless setup options. Although par is expected to be 70 for the championship, that number will very much be relative considering the first and 18th holes will alternately be played as either a par 4 or par 5, depending on the day and conditions."     7742 for par 70 ... hmmm.

Correct, the course par is 72 and may even be a 70 for the Open, but the rating is still way up there.  My 7.4 index would garner me a 10 handicap from the back tees.

[rkim291968]

I think par 4 holes will give our handicappers the most trouble.   It's unlikely that the team will make GIR on longer par 4 holes.   If we believe USGA data, a typical 6-8 handicapper's driver average will be somewhere in 250s  (@GolfingDad and his foursome excepted of course).    That means, they will be facing 230+ yard for their approach shots on number of par 4 holes.   That's going to be daunting.   What they lose in par 4 holes, they need to get them back on par 5s.   Very doable but the pros will be salivating on those par 5 holes for a better score, too.   They either have length to reach in two or leave a lob wedge distance for their 3rd shot.    Unfortunately for our team, there are more par 4 holes than par 5s.

[HawkNballs]

I think nerves alone wouldn't allow you to relax and play your game until the back 9. I would be crapping my pants for 7 holes.

[HawkNballs]

Just for reference... I played from the sand tees (6,513) two years ago when i was around a 7 and shot 83.

[rkim291968]

Just for reference... I played from the sand tees (6,513) two years ago when i was around a 7 and shot 83.

Add 1300 yards (with all the difficulties which come with a US Open course, e.g. faster green) and what would you have done?

[HawkNballs]

Add 1300 yards and what would you have done?

I probably would have taken up tennis! Ha! Probably triple digits... sadly.

[HawkNballs]

There would be several chances of 8+ on some holes.

[Gunther]

There would be several chances of 8+ on some holes.

With a scramble of good players? No chance. And, assuming you're with buds and you've played the course 2 or 3 times with some audience, I doubt the people in the crowd would be a factor. It would be a blast.