Ball Held by Inner Cup Liner, Ruling? (Pictures Inside)

[DannyMac]

Just found this on twitter, and I was wondering what the correct ruling was.  Its a pretty amazing scenario.

[kpaulhus]

I'm calling that in. Don't care what the rule book says on this one lol. That's why they set the liner so deep in the cup.

[Fourputt]

I guess that it's technically ball overhanging hole, but it would really suck to have to tap that one in.  The ball is not holed, and there is no guarantee that it would have stayed in the hole had the useless liner ring not been there (my home course used those for about a half season , then tossed them in the trash as causing more problems than they might ever solve.

You can't make the assumption that would have holed out on the fly, so the ball would have to be placed on the lip and tapped in.

[Golfingdad]

I'm calling that in. Don't care what the rule book says on this one lol. That's why they set the liner so deep in the cup.

I've hit a shot like that on a par 3 but it didn't get stuck in the liner but rather ricocheted 40 feet away and I almost didn't even make par. If that's mine I'm happy to have a tap in birdie. :)

[Abu3baid]

I guess that it's technically ball overhanging hole, but it would really suck to have to tap that one in.  The ball is not holed, and there is no guarantee that it would have stayed in the hole had the useless liner ring not been there (my home course used those for about a half season , then tossed them in the trash as causing more problems than they might ever solve.   You can't make the assumption that would have holed out on the fly, so the ball would have to be placed on the lip and tapped in.

Is this the official ruling or your guess at it? (Educated guess that is) I personally think it is silly to count that as anything other than a hole out.. The ball has broken the plane and to me it is just like if the flag was preventing the ball from going in.. (This is my guess because anything else I find unfair to the golfer who hit that beautiful shot)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I guess that it's technically ball overhanging hole, but it would really suck to have to tap that one in.  The ball is not holed, and there is no guarantee that it would have stayed in the hole had the useless liner ring not been there (my home course used those for about a half season , then tossed them in the trash as causing more problems than they might ever solve.

You can't make the assumption that would have holed out on the fly, so the ball would have to be placed on the lip and tapped in.

Is this the official ruling or your guess at it? (Educated guess that is)

I personally think it is silly to count that as anything other than a hole out.. The ball has broken the plane and to me it is just like if the flag was preventing the ball from going in.. (This is my guess because anything else I find unfair to the golfer who hit that beautiful shot)

Like Golfingdad said right before you, a shot like that is actually more likely to deflect off the flagstick and and not even end up on the green.  You can't assume that it would have stayed in the hole, and it is definitely not holed as it sits.  I'm not guessing, I'm making a judgement call based on my knowledge of the rules.  If someone can come up with a better explanation, then I'm all ears, but until I see that I'm calling like I did in my first post above.

[Abu3baid]

Like Golfingdad said right before you, a shot like that is actually more likely to deflect off the flagstick and and not even end up on the green.  You can't assume that it would have stayed in the hole, and it is definitely not holed as it sits.  I'm not guessing, I'm making a judgement call based on my knowledge of the rules.  If someone can come up with a better explanation, then I'm all ears, but until I see that I'm calling like I did in my first post above.

But why does it matter what would have happened if it had hit the flag? It didn't, the ball is inside the lip and it looks like 50% of it is in the cup. Why is this any different than when the ball is leaning on the flag stick? What ruling are you relying on in making this judgement? Note I'm trying to understand.

[wadesworld]

But why does it matter what would have happened if it had hit the flag? It didn't, the ball is inside the lip and it looks like 50% of it is in the cup.

Why is this any different than when the ball is leaning on the flag stick? What ruling are you relying on in making this judgement? Note I'm trying to understand.

It doesn't appear that all of the ball is below the lip of the hole.  You'd have to get down at ground level to check, but if even a sliver of it is visible above ground level, it is unfortunately, not holed.  There's no debating that point.

[DannyMac]

This is taken from the R & A website.  Not sure if this changes anything

[wadesworld]

This is taken from the R & A website.  Not sure if this changes anything

Here's the USGA statement of the same thing:

Hole

The " hole " must be 4 1⁄4 inches (108 mm) in diameter and at least 4 inches (101.6 mm) deep. If a lining is used, it must be sunk at least 1 inch (25.4 mm) below the putting green surface, unless the nature of the soil makes it impracticable to do so; its outer diameter must not exceed 4 1⁄4 inches (108 mm).

And no, it doesn't change anything:

16/5

Ball Strikes Edge of Hole-Liner and Bounces Out of Hole

Q. A player's ball struck the rim of a hole-liner, which had not been sunk deep enough, and bounced out of the hole. Should the ball be considered holed in such circumstances?

A. No. Under the Definition of "Holed," the ball must be at rest within the circumference of the hole.

If all of the ball is not below the lip, it is not holed, regardless of whether the hole liner was installed correctly or not.  The only possible situation I could foresee which would be different is if some non-conforming hole liner were installed which was not deep enough to allow the ball to rest below the circumference of the lip.  Not sure what the ruling would be in that case - they could either allow the ball to be deemed holed, or I suppose cancel the stroke.  I suspect they would deem it to be holed if it were at rest in the bottom of the liner, but that's just a guess. It's certainly not a situation likely to actually occur.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Like Golfingdad said right before you, a shot like that is actually more likely to deflect off the flagstick and and not even end up on the green.  You can't assume that it would have stayed in the hole, and it is definitely not holed as it sits.  I'm not guessing, I'm making a judgement call based on my knowledge of the rules.  If someone can come up with a better explanation, then I'm all ears, but until I see that I'm calling like I did in my first post above.

But why does it matter what would have happened if it had hit the flag? It didn't, the ball is inside the lip and it looks like 50% of it is in the cup.

Why is this any different than when the ball is leaning on the flag stick? What ruling are you relying on in making this judgement? Note I'm trying to understand.

The ball is not resting against the flagstick, so that point is irrelevant.  From the photo, it appears that the ball is not holed.  Therefore the only definition in the rules that fits this situation is that the ball is embedded in the side of the hole.  Decision 16/3:

16/3

Ball Embedded in Side of Hole; All of Ball Not Below Lip of Hole

Q.A player's ball embeds in the side of a hole. Part of the ball is above the level of the lip of the hole. What is the ruling?

A.The ball is not holed - see Definition of "Holed." The player may play the ball as it lies or lift the ball under Rule 16-1b, repair the damage under Rule 16-1c and place the ball on the lip of the hole.

[Golfingdad]

But why does it matter what would have happened if it had hit the flag? It didn't, the ball is inside the lip and it looks like 50% of it is in the cup. Why is this any different than when the ball is leaning on the flag stick? What ruling are you relying on in making this judgement? Note I'm trying to understand.

Because it's not leaning on the flagstick. It's not really similar to a ball leaning on the flagstick either. It IS similar to playing after a big rain and having the ball plug in the same place even without that stupid plastic ring helping hold it there. In which case, like wadesworld said, it's not holed and it's not debatable.

[isukgolf]

I have to go with it is NOT holed out ... its not even in the "cup" ...:-)

[wadesworld]

I have to go with it is NOT holed out ... its not even in the "cup" ...

Being in the cup, or liner, is irrelevant.  A hole is not required to have a liner.  The only relevant part is that all of the ball has to be at rest below the level of the lip.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by isukgolf

I have to go with it is NOT holed out ... its not even in the "cup" ...

Being in the cup, or liner, is irrelevant.  A hole is not required to have a liner.  The only relevant part is that all of the ball has to be at rest below the level of the lip.

It also must be within the circumference of the hole.  The definition doesn't say whether or not it must be entirely within the circumference, although the inference would be that it must.  If it has to be entirely below the lip, then by extension it should be required that it be entirely within the circumference.

The question begs an official answer - if a ball is embedded in the side of the hole but completely below the lip, is it holed?  I couldn't make an absolute ruling and be certain one way or the other, and I have a feeling that the possibility has never come to the attention of the RB's to the point that they felt it was worth writing a decision.

[ColinL]

Why is the discussion so much on whether the ball is holed or not - which it clearly isn't.  Start thinking about the fact that the liner is a movable obstruction.

[saevel25]

The ball is not resting against the flagstick, so that point is irrelevant.  From the photo, it appears that the ball is not holed.  Therefore the only definition in the rules that fits this situation is that the ball is embedded in the side of the hole.  Decision 16/3:

Technically you can mark it like this right?

If you fix the lip and try to place your ball it would fall in? Under rule 20-1, on marking a ball.

In that case would it be a hole out, or do you just assume that you would have made a stroke to tap it in? I think the marking rules make it difficult to place the ball on the lip since you are then not marking the ball as stated in Rule 20-1. I guess the decision 16/3 you stated says to put it on the lip. Though in this case the rules are kinda conflicting on marking a ball, and then placing the ball on the lip when the marker would take up all the space the ball could be placed.

The question begs an official answer - if a ball is embedded in the side of the hole but completely below the lip, is it holed?  I couldn't make an absolute ruling and be certain one way or the other, and I have a feeling that the possibility has never come to the attention of the RB's to the point that they felt it was worth writing a decision.

If you checked the decision above the one you posted ;)

16/2

Ball Embedded in Side of Hole; All of Ball Below Lip of Hole

Q.A player's ball embeds in the side of a hole. All of the ball is below the level of the lip of the hole. What is the ruling?

A.The ball should be considered holed even though all of the ball is not within the circumference of the hole as required by the Definition of "Holed."

[Abu3baid]

Why is the discussion so much on whether the ball is holed or not - which it clearly isn't.  Start thinking about the fact that the liner is a movable obstruction.

My point is that if we move the liner out of the way the ball drops in.. The contention is no the ball is picked up, hole/liner fixed and then ball placed on lip.. It was mentioned it is just like a ball being embedded next to the hole or on the hole lip, the difference in my mind is that liner.