Washed-out Bunker - What is the Ruling?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A bunker cannot turn into a water hazard just by the addition of water, not even with a local rule.  Standing water in a bunker is casual water.

Did you read the relevant Decision as I suggested? It does not turn into a water hazard but becomes Through the Green.

I was specifically refuting his statement that the bunker became a water hazard.  I figured that the rest had already been covered.

[Rulesman]

Sorry. My misread.

[sjduffers]

A quick follow-up question: after a bad storm, many bunkers have lots of water in them and the local course golf head pro tells an outside tournament committee playing at that course the next day after the big storm to make a local rule treating all the bunkers on the course as GUR (both for pace of play and to avoid further damage to the bunkers, as his rationale). Is this a proper local rule?

My hunch is no, as there are bunkers bound to have at least some playable areas in them, and getting a free drop for every bunker significantly alters the difficulty of a course, where the main defense is the plethora of (difficult, deep) bunkers.  In my view, in that case, all bunkers should be treated as a lateral hazard, with a penalty stroke and 2 club lengths drop from the point of entry (or any other options for a lateral water hazard), as opposed to a free drop 1 club length from nearest point of relief...

[Lihu]

A quick follow-up question: after a bad storm, many bunkers have lots of water in them and the local course golf head pro tells an outside tournament committee playing at that course the next day after the big storm to make a local rule treating all the bunkers on the course as GUR (both for pace of play and to avoid further damage to the bunkers, as his rationale). Is this a proper local rule?

My hunch is no, as there are bunkers bound to have at least some playable areas in them, and getting a free drop for every bunker significantly alters the difficulty of a course, where the main defense is the plethora of (difficult, deep) bunkers.  In my view, in that case, all bunkers should be treated as a lateral hazard, with a penalty stroke and 2 club lengths drop from the point of entry (or any other options for a lateral water hazard), as opposed to a free drop 1 club length from nearest point of relief...

As far as I understand it, local rules need some level approval as well.

[ColinL]

A quick follow-up question: after a bad storm, many bunkers have lots of water in them and the local course golf head pro tells an outside tournament committee playing at that course the next day after the big storm to make a local rule treating all the bunkers on the course as GUR (both for pace of play and to avoid further damage to the bunkers, as his rationale). Is this a proper local rule?

My hunch is no, as there are bunkers bound to have at least some playable areas in them, and getting a free drop for every bunker significantly alters the difficulty of a course, where the main defense is the plethora of (difficult, deep) bunkers.  In my view, in that case, all bunkers should be treated as a lateral hazard, with a penalty stroke and 2 club lengths drop from the point of entry (or any other options for a lateral water hazard), as opposed to a free drop 1 club length from nearest point of relief...

Your hunch that you cannot simply rule all bunkers as GUR is a good one. Bunkers  filled with casual water may be made GUR on a case by case basis only.  See Decision 33-8/27

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33,d33-8-27

The tournament committee should determine which bunkers, if any, are to be GUR during its course check before play starts.

Your view that a bunker filled with water should be treated as a lateral water hazard is not supportable,  as has been stated above.

[sjduffers]

Your hunch that you cannot simply rule all bunkers as GUR is a good one. Bunkers  filled with casual water may be made GUR on a case by case basis only.  See Decision 33-8/27

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-33,d33-8-27

The tournament committee should determine which bunkers, if any, are to be GUR during its course check before play starts.

Your view  that a bunker filled with water should be treated as a lateral water hazard is not supportable,  as has been stated above.

Thanks for the reply and for looking up the decision.  Since the tournament committee arrived at the course shortly before the event started, they didn't have time to survey the course and so they did take the head pro's advice, in effect creating a global rule violation. I protested but only mildly as I didn't have all the supporting rules and decisions on top of my head. Now I do, thanks.

If this happens again (and it probably will), I will make a point of requesting that if a drop is made outside any bunker (under the "all bunkers are flooded, drop outside"), a penalty stroke be added and the drop be made inline with the flag and the point of entry, following 25-1b(ii), unless the player finds a proper relief point in the bunker with a free drop, in defiance of the head pro recommendation (or is it an order?) to drop outside, i.e. 25-1b(i). Note that this would effectively be treating all the bunkers as water hazards (not lateral water hazards with the 2 clubs length option) and jives with the fact that bunkers are indeed hazards and a player shouldn't be "rewarded" for going into one, by a free drop outside the bunker.  This is especially important for courses (like this one) which have lots of bunkers as the primary defense of the course.

[Asheville]

Your suggestion is not supported by ANY approved Local Rule.

[sjduffers]

Your suggestion is not supported by ANY approved Local Rule.

I don't think I am suggested anything. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, so please help me with that.

Again, the course pro tells the tournament committee (a bunch of players running an event for a roaming club who just happen to visit that private golf course the day after a big storm has washed out most/all of the bunkers) to not play from within the bunkers. The rules/decisions don't allow the committee to make a local rule treating all bunkers as GUR, which is unfortunately what they have done in the past... Now, how should this be handled by the rules, in the future? In application of 25-1b, either drop in the bunker with no penalty (against the wishes or order of the course pro), as per 25-1b(i) or drop outside on a line between the flag and the point of entry per 25-1b(ii).  Correct?

In the first case, you risk the wrath of this private club that let this tournament play there and likely won't be invited again. In the second case, this is in effect treating the bunkers as water hazards. Is it not? What other options are there?  A free drop outside the bunkers as if they were all GUR is not proper (even though it is what happened). So, please enlighten me: what do we do?

[Rulesman]

"When in Rome ....." is the clue

[wadesworld]

I don't think I am suggested anything. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, so please help me with that.

Again, the course pro tells the tournament committee (a bunch of players running an event for a roaming club who just happen to visit that private golf course the day after a big storm has washed out most/all of the bunkers) to not play from within the bunkers. The rules/decisions don't allow the committee to make a local rule treating all bunkers as GUR, which is unfortunately what they have done in the past... Now, how should this be handled by the rules, in the future? In application of 25-1b, either drop in the bunker with no penalty (against the wishes or order of the course pro), as per 25-1b(i) or drop outside on a line between the flag and the point of entry per 25-1b(ii).  Correct?

In the first case, you risk the wrath of this private club that let this tournament play there and likely won't be invited again. In the second case, this is in effect treating the bunkers as water hazards. Is it not? What other options are there?  A free drop outside the bunkers as if they were all GUR is not proper (even though it is what happened). So, please enlighten me: what do we do?

It's being overthought IMHO. If this is a club tournament, do what the host club wants and move on.

If it were a serious tournament, while the committee may not make a blanket rule declaring all bunkers to be GUR, there is nothing which says they could not implement a local rule which declares every bunker, individually, as GUR.  That said, to be done properly, someone would need to visit every bunker and ensure each one was completely flooded (unlikely).

[Asheville]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asheville

Your suggestion is not supported by ANY approved Local Rule.

I don't think I am suggested anything. Perhaps my understanding is flawed, so please help me with that.

Again, the course pro tells the tournament committee (a bunch of players running an event for a roaming club who just happen to visit that private golf course the day after a big storm has washed out most/all of the bunkers) to not play from within the bunkers. The rules/decisions don't allow the committee to make a local rule treating all bunkers as GUR, which is unfortunately what they have done in the past... Now, how should this be handled by the rules, in the future? In application of 25-1b, either drop in the bunker with no penalty (against the wishes or order of the course pro), as per 25-1b(i) or drop outside on a line between the flag and the point of entry per 25-1b(ii).  Correct?

In the first case, you risk the wrath of this private club that let this tournament play there and likely won't be invited again. In the second case, this is in effect treating the bunkers as water hazards. Is it not? What other options are there?  A free drop outside the bunkers as if they were all GUR is not proper (even though it is what happened). So, please enlighten me: what do we do?

I suggest that if it ever rains again there that you play the course as the Committee defines it. Don't make up goofy rules like:

I will make a point of requesting that if a drop is made outside any bunker (under the "all bunkers are flooded, drop outside"), a penalty stroke be added and the drop be made inline with the flag and the point of entry, following 25-1b(ii), unless the player finds a proper relief point in the bunker with a free drop, in defiance of the head pro recommendation (or is it an order?) to drop outside, i.e. 25-1b(i). Note that this would effectively be treating all the bunkers as water hazards (not lateral water hazards with the 2 clubs length option) and jives with the fact that bunkers are indeed hazards and a player shouldn't be "rewarded" for going into one, by a free drop outside the bunker.

[sjduffers]

"When in Rome ....." is the clue

Ok. Thanks. Let's see: if I get this right, we have Rulesman suggesting to break a rule (or a decision at least) in a rule forum!  This gotta be a first, no?

It's being overthought IMHO. If this is a club tournament, do what the host club wants and move on.

If it were a serious tournament, while the committee may not make a blanket rule declaring all bunkers to be GUR, there is nothing which says they could not implement a local rule which declares every bunker, individually, as GUR.  That said, to be done properly, someone would need to visit every bunker and ensure each one was completely flooded (unlikely).

Yes. Thanks. We did what the host club wanted.  You're right though: it is unlikely that every bunker will be completely flooded and in this case, some (most) of them had some areas that were playable.  As for the walkthrough, it would take quite some time and/or personnel to do, which is fine in a serious (say state level) tournament, but is/was impractical in this club tournament.

I suggest that if it ever rains again there that you play the course as the Committee defines it. Don't make up goofy rules like:

I will make a point of requesting that if a drop is made outside any bunker (under the "all bunkers are flooded, drop outside"), a penalty stroke be added and the drop be made inline with the flag and the point of entry, following 25-1b(ii), unless the player finds a proper relief point in the bunker with a free drop, in defiance of the head pro recommendation (or is it an order?) to drop outside, i.e. 25-1b(i). Note that this would effectively be treating all the bunkers as water hazards (not lateral water hazards with the 2 clubs length option) and jives with the fact that bunkers are indeed hazards and a player shouldn't be "rewarded" for going into one, by a free drop outside the bunker.

The Committee decided something improper, but we did all play by those rules. I didn't make up a goofy rule, but I am guilty of misquoting the relevant rules: in the above, I mentioned 25-1b(i) and 25-1b(ii), where I meant to say 25-1b(ii)(a) and 25-1b(ii)(b). I am also guilty of not quoting properly the line to drop on.

Here is the relevant quote, from Rule 25-1:

25-1 . Abnormal Ground Conditions

...

b . Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard , a player may take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows:

...

(ii) In a Bunker: If the ball is in a bunker , the player must lift the ball and drop it either:

(a) Without penalty, in accordance with Clause (i) above, except that the nearest point of relief must be in the bunker and the ball must be dropped in the bunker or, if complete relief is impossible, as near as possible to the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole , on a part of the course in the bunker that affords maximum available relief from the condition; or

(b) Under penalty of one stroke , outside the bunker keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the bunker the ball may be dropped.

Can we agree, that unless all bunkers have individually been examined and all listed individually as GUR (something very unlikely to happen), the proper procedure to both follow the rules of golf and the wishes of the host club to not play from the bunkers, is to follow 25-1b(ii)(b)?

If so, except for the minor difference that the line to drop on is determined by the ball at rest in the bunker and the hole, vs the point of entry and the hole in the case of a water hazard in 26-1(b), this effectively (I don't mean to actually change the qualification of a bunker into that of a water hazard) treats the bunkers as WH?  That's all, I meant, really.  Sorry for the confusion.

[Rulesman]

Ok. Thanks. Let's see: if I get this right, we have Rulesman suggesting to break a rule (or a decision at least) in a rule forum!  This gotta be a first, no?

.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the committee have made an unauthorised rule, play by it. Don't make up your own variation as well.

[RickK]

I play in a tournament league and am on the rules committee.  If we have heavy rains overnight or the day before, a couple of us on the rules committee go out and take a look at several holes to check out the bunkers.  If you have played a course multiple times, you generally know where to go look for problems.  If we have issues with the bunkers, we make a local ruling and deem them GUR.  We had to do that recently.  We are playing daily fee courses and we don't expect that the course is going to be like the PGA and have someone out there making sure the courses is as perfect as possible for us.  So, it is our job as part of the tournament committee to make the decision before we start play.

Now, if I am just out playing a casual round with my buddies, if the ball is in a washed out condition, we drop the ball in the bunker and play on.  If the bunker is completely filled with water and there is no where to drop...then we drop outside the bunker with no penalty.  Recently, I lost 3 balls in bunkers that were completely filled with water. We saw the splash, knew the ball was in there but using a rake we could never find them.  It just is what it is.

Anyway, my point on this is...if it is a tournament, then it is the job of the tournament committee to make the ruling, hopefully before play begins.  If they don't, then I would play 2 balls and ask for a ruling after the round.

[sjduffers]

Two wrongs don't make a right.

If the committee have made an unauthorised rule, play by it. Don't make up your own variation as well.

As i said numerous times, I did play by it: no issue there. I am more concerned about the next time this happens (and it will at some point), when there is a chance to do something about it before the wrong local rule is declared in effect.  IMHO, I didn't make a rule (although I acknowledge I misquoted the rule I intended to quote, because I was not careful when I looked it up, but as of post #30, this has been rectified).  The relief procedure from an abnormal ground condition including casual water (in the bunker, drop outside the bunker) is spelled out clearly in the RoG, as 25-1b(ii)(b). Is it not?

I don't understand why nobody is commenting on that aspect of my question.  Does 25-1b(ii)(b) not apply then?  Again, I am fine if a bunker, or several, if explicitly designated is/are declared GUR (such as when a bunker is being rebuilt). But not all. I am advocating arguing the wrongness of the local rule decision with the committee before play starts and using the proper rule instead. What is wrong with that?

Please, also note this decision:

25-1b/8

Player's Options When Bunker Completely Covered by Casual Water

Q. If a player's ball lies in a bunker completely covered by casual water, what are his options?

A. The player may play the ball as it lies or:

(1) drop the ball in the bunker without penalty at the nearest point, not nearer the hole, where the depth of the casual water is least - Rule 25-1b(ii)(a) ; or

(2) drop the ball behind the bunker under penalty of one stroke - Rule 25-1b(ii)(b) ; or

(3) deem the ball unplayable and proceed in accordance with Rule 28 .

So, if a specific bunker is not declared GUR, and the course prohibits play in that bunker, what is left?  25-1b(ii)(b), as I keep arguing, or of course ball unplayable (also resulting in a penalty stroke).  Again, where am I wrong?

Thanks!

[sjduffers]

I play in a tournament league and am on the rules committee.  If we have heavy rains overnight or the day before, a couple of us on the rules committee go out and take a look at several holes to check out the bunkers.  If you have played a course multiple times, you generally know where to go look for problems.  If we have issues with the bunkers, we make a local ruling and deem them GUR.  We had to do that recently.  We are playing daily fee courses and we don't expect that the course is going to be like the PGA and have someone out there making sure the courses is as perfect as possible for us.  So, it is our job as part of the tournament committee to make the decision before we start play.

Now, if I am just out playing a casual round with my buddies, if the ball is in a washed out condition, we drop the ball in the bunker and play on.  If the bunker is completely filled with water and there is no where to drop...then we drop outside the bunker with no penalty.  Recently, I lost 3 balls in bunkers that were completely filled with water. We saw the splash, knew the ball was in there but using a rake we could never find them.  It just is what it is.

Anyway, my point on this is...if it is a tournament, then it is the job of the tournament committee to make the ruling, hopefully before play begins.  If they don't, then I would play 2 balls and ask for a ruling after the round.

I appreciate the reply. I understand mother nature is more powerful than us and can wreak havoc on a course. That's not my issue. The bolded part is not a proper local rule, if by "them" you mean "all". See decision 33-8/27.  It is ok however to make such a local rule, if you list some of the bunkers (perhaps even all, but that is very unlikely) explicitly.

33-8/27

Local Rule Providing Relief Without Penalty from Bunker Filled with Casual Water

Q. May a Committee make a Local Rule allowing a player to drop out of any bunker filled with casual water, without penalty, contrary to Rule 25-1b(ii) ?

A. No. The Committee may not make a Local Rule providing generally that flooded bunkers are ground under repair through the green, as such a Local Rule waives a penalty imposed by the Rules of Golf, contrary to Rule 33-8b .

However, in exceptional circumstances, where certain specific bunkers are completely flooded and there is no reasonable likelihood of the bunkers drying up during the round, the Committee may introduce a Local Rule providing relief without penalty from specific bunkers. Prior to introducing such a Local Rule, the Committee must be convinced that such exceptional circumstances exist and that providing relief without penalty from specific bunkers is more appropriate than simply applying Rule 25-1b(ii) . If the Committee elects to introduce a Local Rule, the following wording is suggested:

"The flooded bunker on [insert location of bunker; e.g., left of 5th green] is ground under repair. If a player's ball lies in that bunker or if that bunker interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing and the player wishes to take relief, he must take relief outside the bunker, without penalty, in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i) . All other bunkers on the course, regardless of whether they contain water, maintain their status as hazards and the Rules apply accordingly. "

In a competition played over more than one round, such a Local Rule may be introduced or rescinded between rounds.

Note the bolded part (bolded by me) in the decision. For those other (non-designated) bunkers, rule 25-1b(ii) applies, and if you take out that rules' option (a) because the course forbids playing from there, you are left with 25-1b(ii)(b) (including a penalty stroke) or ball unplayable (also with a penalty stroke)...

My question is what to do before play starts and the committee is about to make this wrong local rule again?

[Rulesman]

.

My question is what to do before play starts and the committee is about to make this wrong local rule again?

Take it up with them. If they insist on the 'local rule', play by it.

The committee are the ultimate authority even if they are wrong. If the issue is taken up with the USGA or R&A;, they will only say what the correct ruling is but they have no power to enforce it or overrule the committee.

[RickK]

I appreciate the reply. I understand mother nature is more powerful than us and can wreak havoc on a course. That's not my issue. The bolded part is not a proper local rule, if by "them" you mean "all". See decision 33-8/27.  It is ok however to make such a local rule, if you list some of the bunkers (perhaps even all, but that is very unlikely) explicitly.

33-8/27

Local Rule Providing Relief Without Penalty from Bunker Filled with Casual Water

Q.May a Committee make a Local Rule allowing a player to drop out of any bunker filled with casual water, without penalty, contrary to Rule 25-1b(ii)?

A.No. The Committee may not make a Local Rule providing generally that flooded bunkers are ground under repair through the green, as such a Local Rule waives a penalty imposed by the Rules of Golf, contrary to Rule 33-8b.

However, in exceptional circumstances, where certain specific bunkers are completely flooded and there is no reasonable likelihood of the bunkers drying up during the round, the Committee may introduce a Local Rule providing relief without penalty from specific bunkers. Prior to introducing such a Local Rule, the Committee must be convinced that such exceptional circumstances exist and that providing relief without penalty from specific bunkers is more appropriate than simply applying Rule 25-1b(ii). If the Committee elects to introduce a Local Rule, the following wording is suggested:

"The flooded bunker on [insert location of bunker; e.g., left of 5th green] is ground under repair. If a player's ball lies in that bunker or if that bunker interferes with the player's stance or the area of his intended swing and the player wishes to take relief, he must take relief outside the bunker, without penalty, in accordance with Rule 25-1b(i). All other bunkers on the course, regardless of whether they contain water, maintain their status as hazards and the Rules apply accordingly."

In a competition played over more than one round, such a Local Rule may be introduced or rescinded between rounds.

Note the bolded part (bolded by me) in the decision. For those other (non-designated) bunkers, rule 25-1b(ii) applies, and if you take out that rules' option (a) because the course forbids playing from there, you are left with 25-1b(ii)(b) (including a penalty stroke) or ball unplayable (also with a penalty stroke)...

My question is what to do before play starts and the committee is about to make this wrong local rule again?

Before I give my response, I am very strong on playing golf "by the rules".

There are much larger tournament leagues than ours that I am familiar with.  For instance, the Golf Channel Amateur Tour plays in our area also.  They have made the same ruling that we have because of bunker conditions.

It is pretty simple...none of our organizations have pumping equipment and maintenance equipment to go out and groom the bunkers before a 9am start time for the tournament.  The golf courses have tee times that follow us.  We can't postpone our start until 11am and no one else get to play the course while the course brings it up to speed so that we can abide 100% by the USGA rules.

I am a realist.  We came to play an event.  We are going to play.  The only problem with the course is the bunkers.  For everything else, we can deal with casual water via the ROG.  And, we are not going to penalize our members who came to play because the bunkers all over the course are unplayable.  If it were just bunkers full of water, that could easily be handled.  What you cannot handle is the bunkers which are washed out, as in the OP. When they are in this condition, they are not playable.

Even in good weather conditions, I have encountered playing a course where the sign in the pro shop says...we are renovating our bunkers.  Free drop from any bunker on the course at this time.  Now, I could easily amend our Local Rule to read as follows.  Hole #1, fairway bunkers on right side of fairway and greenside bunkers are GUR.  Hole #2, fairway bunkers, left and right side of fairway,and greenside bunkers are GUR.  And so on...but we are not going to do that.

The thing with a local rule, right or wrong, everyone is playing under the same local rule.  If you feel the committee is making a wrong local ruling, you should address it with them before play starts.  Another thing you can do, and I tell this to anyone who questions a ruling in our league, volunteer to become a member of the committee.