Recreational "Tour" with Modified Rules, Good or Bad?

[Wally Fairway]

If it is something you are interested in, give it a try. I would be cautious of trying to compete in tournaments using USGA handicaps in addition to doing those modified tournaments. Just because it's a totally different style of golf, and it might make you play worse when you go back to strict rules of golf.

Just don't pull a Danny Lee and forget which set of rules you are playing under

[18rounds]

I've said it before...

I wonder why our sport isn't growing. Somebody suggest a group of players having fun under simplified rules and the chorus of "that aint golf", "That's cheating" and  "get off my lawn" starts.

Just look at post here. someone will present a scenario and it will take two pages of post for the rules gurus to hash through which point which rule applies and why.

Almost all sports have people playing by recreational rules. Our local rec hockey league plays with no checking, shortened periods and modified overtime rules. Nobody is telling them that they are cheating or that they are not playing hockey.

[RickK]

When I started playing in the Tournament League I currently play in, they played "relaxed" (if you will) rules similar to what OP has mentioned.  The problem came when they wanted to start actually having official USGA handicaps.  They were not playing by USGA rules.  Yes, playing that way is fun and yes it might get some folks playing in some form of competitive golf that is not serious.

I was the first "chairman of rules committee" when the league got serious about playing to USGA rules.  Now, we play it by the ROG and our handicaps are official.

Occasionally, we have someone come in and suggest we go back to playing with those "relaxed rules" and they get told quickly...we do not play that way.

Again, if it is all for fun...who cares.  If you are a player who will never play in an event conducted under the ROG, go for it.  But, if you want an official handicap and you do play in events that are played under the ROG...you are only hurting yourself playing this way.

[eich41]

It's an interesting concept.  It seems that just handicapping and flighting an event or league (for those who play with these rules) would accomplish the same thing.  What's the difference between not following the rules of golf, giving yourself preferred lies on every shot, and reducing the penalties for OB/lost balls, vs. just playing by the rules of golf and using the handicap system?  Either way your score is an artificially low number, but at least with a handicap you would actually have a pretty good gauge of whether you played well or poor based on a net score.  With lax rules and always having a good lie is simply not going to help you play better golf and you won't know if you played well or not as improving your lie and no stroke and distance can shave a lot of strokes off your game.

I guess the concept is that you're playing a more casual and social type of golf that's easier for high handicappers to get around the course, but then it's competitive as well.  For me personally, those two things are contradictory.  But then again, you have people who always sandbag and try to get every advantage they can over their competition just so they can win.  I guess for some it's more about feeling good about "winning" even if they needed favorable rules, conditions, or strokes to do so.

If I were the OP and there was an option of playing in another "tour" like the Golf Galaxy Am Tour and those types of events I'd do it.  There you just play by the rules, with a handicap, and they flight the events so that you're playing against a group of golfers that are of similar ability.  You'll get better, you'll get some true competitive golf, and if you win you'll

[Elmer]

I've said it before...

I wonder why our sport isn't growing. Somebody suggest a group of players having fun under simplified rules and the chorus of "that aint golf", "That's cheating" and  "get off my lawn" starts.

Just look at post here. someone will present a scenario and it will take two pages of post for the rules gurus to hash through which point which rule applies and why.

Almost all sports have people playing by recreational rules. Our local rec hockey league plays with no checking, shortened periods and modified overtime rules. Nobody is telling them that they are cheating or that they are not playing hockey.

You sir have won the internet for the day!

I played in a Lacrosse league for years, we played half  field, indoor, reduced teams, reduced contact, and no face offs after goals.

It was a blast and it was still Lacrosse.

There are rec leagues for all types of sports. But Golf seems to be the only stickler of the bunch.

And people wonder why golf is perceived to be snobby, elitist and exclusionary !

[Patch]

Any idea, modified, or not, as long as it gets/keeps folks in the game is a good thing. As for playing with modified rules, you would all be playing under them rules. If it's a problem for your USGA handicap, don't record it.

I belonged to one of those leagues once but quit because it became too "clanish", and some of the good old boys would use some extra creative scoring in addition to the modified rules. I complained, nothing was done, so I just forgot playing with them.

[iacas]

This is something my league does not do. The only time you can improve your lie is when the ground underneath is sketchy. You dont get to pull out of a bunker just because it is a bunker.

However I will always allow my opponent to move his ball away from a root. I dont need anyone busting up their equipment playing a game!

I dont want to bust my equipment!

sketchy?

If you don't want to bust your equipment:

1. Make a small swing and chip it sideways.
2. Declare it unplayable and take the penalty drop.

You're basically just doing #2 without the associated penalty. You get a 6, but write down a 5. Why? Do you feel better about yourself? You got a 6. But you write down a 5, and let others write down their 5s.

To what end? In that situation, you're literally just taking a stroke off. You're basically following the procedure for an unplayable lie… and just not taking the penalty stroke.

I've said it before...

I wonder why our sport isn't growing. Somebody suggest a group of players having fun under simplified rules and the chorus of "that aint golf", "That's cheating" and  "get off my lawn" starts.

Playing by the rules is still fun. What it isn't is just taking 6 and writing down 5.

I guess some people define "fun" as "cheating" and "writing down a lower score than you actually got" and "lying to yourself about how good you are or aren't at a game."

You can have fun playing golf under the Rules. Especially when it's something goofy like the above: hit it or declare it unplayable. Same procedure… just don't lie and fail to add the penalty stroke.

[eich41]

sketchy?

If you don't want to bust your equipment:

Make a small swing and chip it sideways.

Declare it unplayable and take the penalty drop.

You're basically just doing #2 without the associated penalty. You get a 6, but write down a 5. Why? Do you feel better about yourself? You got a 6. But you write down a 5, and let others write down their 5s.

To what end? In that situation, you're literally just taking a stroke off. You're basically following the procedure for an unplayable lie… and just not taking the penalty stroke.

Playing by the rules is still fun. What it isn't is just taking 6 and writing down 5.

I guess some people define "fun" as "cheating" and "writing down a lower score than you actually got" and "lying to yourself about how good you are or aren't at a game."

You can have fun playing golf under the Rules. Especially when it's something goofy like the above: hit it or declare it unplayable. Same procedure… just don't lie and fail to add the penalty stroke.

I think it's not a big deal for casual golfers to play this way.  If it helps them enjoy the round more, makes it easier and quicker to get around the course, then by all means.  To be fair a lot of mid to high cappers probably don't know many of the proper rules anyways.  As long as they know that they don't really shoot an 85 it's not sweat off my back (and even if they think that I don't really care). I personally just find it a bit weird that one would want to play in a competitive match with these rules.  I'd rather see good shots rewarded and bad shots punished.  I'd hate seeing a guy pull an approach shot left and on the lip of the bunker where he has a bad lie and no stance, only to be able to lift, place and give himself a stance and a great lie for a chip.  Especially if I left it short in the fairway and have a tricky tight lie to play.

[RickK]

While I am not a proponent of playing by this type of modified rules, one thing it will do is speed up play.  I saw that in my tournament league when we switched from modified rules to actually playing by the ROG.  Pace of play got slower and that is a challenge for our league.  I have heard tons of reason why it should have not gotten slower but reality is reality...it got slower.

[iacas]

I think it's not a big deal for casual golfers to play this way.

To be perfectly clear, I couldn't care less what people do in their own time and so on. On their own, do whatever makes you happy so long as it's not limiting the happiness of others or destroying property, etc.

But when people commit to playing a "tournament" or a "league" then they should commit to playing a certain set of rules. And when you basically take an unplayable because a lie is "sketchy" and just don't take the penalty stroke, that's neither faster nor anything else. It's just blatant lying to yourself about what you shot. Drop, add the strokes, and hit the shot. Yet golfers will justify not doing the second of those two steps - the easiest part that takes no extra time. I can write a "4" on the card just as quickly as I can write a "5" on it.

I personally just find it a bit weird that one would want to play in a competitive match with these rules.

You and me both.

It's like claiming that you bowled a 284 game because in your league you draw a card each frame and added the number of pins to your score as what was on the card. It's not a 284. May not even be a 184. It's just lying to yourself.

Which is fine by me, again, if you're just out having fun. But leagues and tournaments are about the fun of other people, too, and by cheating your limiting their fun by cheating the fairness.

[eich41]

I think it would speed up play a bit. Your example is true in theory, but if faced with a bad lie, most people wont take a unplayable, they will just try to play from the bad lie, and hope for the best. Then they skull it or shank it and it ultimately takes longer. If you're laying 3 with a bad lie, you can take an unplayable, and hit five to the green and maybe make your double bogey and move on. Or you could just play it and maybe end up in the same spot. It may ultimately be smarter to take the unplayable, but 95% of players will not do so if there's a chance to avoid the penalty.

[iacas]

I think it would speed up play a bit. Your example is true in theory, but if faced with a bad lie, most people wont take a unplayable, they will just try to play from the bad lie, and hope for the best. Then they skull it or shank it and it ultimately takes longer. If you're laying 3 with a bad lie, you can take an unplayable, and hit five to the green and maybe make your double bogey and move on. Or you could just play it and maybe end up in the same spot. It may ultimately be smarter to take the unplayable, but 95% of players will not do so if there's a chance to avoid the penalty.

That's beside the point. They're taking the unplayable… just not the penalty that comes with it. If your argument is that they might try to play it if there's a penalty… then it wasn't unplayable. :-P

[Elmer]

To be perfectly clear, I couldn't care less what people do in their own time and so on. On their own, do whatever makes you happy so long as it's not limiting the happiness of others or destroying property, etc.

But when people commit to playing a "tournament" or a "league" then they should commit to playing a certain set of rules. And when you basically take an unplayable because a lie is "sketchy" and just don't take the penalty stroke, that's neither faster nor anything else. It's just blatant lying to yourself about what you shot. Drop, add the strokes, and hit the shot. Yet golfers will justify not doing the second of those two steps - the easiest part that takes no extra time. I can write a "4" on the card just as quickly as I can write a "5" on it.

You and me both.

It's like claiming that you bowled a 284 game because in your league you draw a card each frame and added the number of pins to your score as what was on the card. It's not a 284. May not even be a 184. It's just lying to yourself.

Which is fine by me, again, if you're just out having fun. But leagues and tournaments are about the fun of other people, too, and by cheating your limiting their fun by cheating the fairness.

We are never going to agree on this.

Once again this is a modified, recreational league. NOT PGA. never do my scores of my league factor into my GHIN handicap. I have a league handicap and a offical GHIN and never do the 2 meet.

If the league has agreed upon and committed to " playing a certain set of rules." then we should be fine as a recreational league.

That being said I have addressed the course I play many, many times. It is a poorly kept muni, but it is a my home course. There are dry, hard pan. Shale protruding from the ground, roots and even the dead animal. For instance my opponents ball landed 5 ft from a hawk chowing down on a dead rabbit. I told the guy to move his ball back on his line this way he did not have to have his back to a hawk during his back swing. They have nasty talons!!!

Once when I was hitting out of the bunker I ended up hitting a potato sized rock in the bunker. dented the face of my wedge. The course does not clean or clear or maintain the bunkers. So we usually do a lift as a precaution.

My league is about having fun and playing competitive golf against my opponent. But truth be told it doesnt matter what I shoot, it is about playing better than the guy standing next to you. But I always go out and try to shoot my best as well as the guys in my league. My league has been around for nearly 70 years and during that time we have had grand fathers, father & sons all playing together. Generation after generation played under these rules and no complaints. We have high handicappers and scratch golfers.
And not one of them has ever pretended that their round would win them the masters.

It is the difference between playing for the yankees and playing wiffle ball in the back yard with your son.

If you can not understand the difference you are taking yourself and the game way too seriously.

[iacas]

We are never going to agree on this.  Once again this is a modified, recreational league. NOT PGA. never do my scores of my league factor into my GHIN handicap. I have a league handicap and a offical GHIN and never do the 2 meet. If the league has agreed upon and committed to " playing a certain set of rules." then we should be fine as a recreational league.

Has your league defined "sketchy" so that it can be applied equitably? [quote name="Elmer" url="/t/83342/recreational-tour-with-modified-rules-good-or-bad/30#post_1173563"]It is the difference between playing for the yankees and playing wiffle ball in the back yard with your son. If you can not understand the difference you are taking yourself and the game way too seriously. [/quote] It really isn't. You're playing against other people for prizes. They pay to play. They might all want it that way but let's not stretch it by comparing it to MLB vs. wiffle ball games. I'm happy you are happy. I'm just saying it makes no sense to me why you can't add a penalty stroke if you incur a penalty instead of dropping. You want to read WAY more into my addition to this thread than I am saying. I'm talking only about that specific thing. A thing where you do everything as if taking an unplayable except add the stroke. Play winter rules in the fairway. The PGA Tour certainly does often enough. Have a blast. Good for you. But when you take an unplayable without a stroke anywhere you want you're straying awfully far from the Principles.

[Braivo]

You want to read WAY more into my addition to this thread than I am saying. I'm talking only about that specific thing. A thing where you do everything as if taking an unplayable except add the stroke.

The issue I have with the tour I was considering joining is that it goes beyond simply not taking the penalty stroke. You can actually move, clean, and place the ball at any location on the course to improve your lie. You aren't dropping. You can take your ball in the rough, fluff up the grass, then place your ball on top like a tee on every single shot. How can you possibly make that equitable? In fact, it actually may give an advantage to being in the rough so you can fluff the lie.

[ghalfaire]

I play with a league that has similar rules a couple of three times a month.  But in general I don't include the rounds in my handicap data.  It puts you at a disadvantage to do so.  I tried just playing but not availing myself of the special rules but that just seems to create some other problems.  Fellow players get angry if you take time to hit a provisional of go back to your previous position since the special rules "are in place to speed up the game".  So I gave up, just go along to get along (I like the guys) and don't enter the scores.  I just consider these rounds practice rounds.  Not sure that's legal but that's what I do.

[Jon Hoover]

They might all want it that way but let's not stretch it by comparing it to MLB vs. wiffle ball games.

No its more like a game of basketball which many people will bet on, but they don't play full court and they're not calling ticky tack fouls, they are just people out playing to have fun. In my afternoon league the rules are similar but the people who win aren't the ones taking drops period. The rules are just set in place like that to keep the people who aren't that good from having a miserable time and to speed up pace of play only so much daylight. I could just imagine some of the guys I play with in the league having to hit multiple tee shots after sending shot after of shot OB, great way to dissolve the league. It also prevents arguments because some people are going to fluff their lie weather its acceptable or not. If you that concerned about people having a "unfair advantage" go find a amateur golf league, otherwise pull the stick from your and just have some fun, and you'll probably win some money and make a couple friends.

[Elmer]

Has your league defined "sketchy" so that it can be applied equitably?

It really isn't. You're playing against other people for prizes. They pay to play.

They might all want it that way but let's not stretch it by comparing it to MLB vs. wiffle ball games.

I'm happy you are happy. I'm just saying it makes no sense to me why you can't add a penalty stroke if you incur a penalty instead of dropping. You want to read WAY more into my addition to this thread than I am saying. I'm talking only about that specific thing. A thing where you do everything as if taking an unplayable except add the stroke.

Play winter rules in the fairway. The PGA Tour certainly does often enough. Have a blast. Good for you. But when you take an unplayable without a stroke anywhere you want you're straying awfully far from the Principles.

We do play winter rules in the fairway. But I get the sense that you think we are moving our balls all over the course and carding an even par round. When in fact most rounds take place with very little movement of balls.
The course has spots that would be considered ground under repair . For instance the green, which are a mess. Never rolled, never plugged and big patches of sand. The Greens had been cut up so they could replace the turf. The problem was they left the cut part still on the green. So you have the big rectangular patches of green with a lip, which were un puttable (if that is a word). I allowed my opponent to move, no further to the hole to have a decent put. This is stuff you would never find on any other golf course.

Any well manicured course would not have these specific issues. Which is why we are a little lenient. Now if you were in the woods you would expect to find a root. Not in the middle of the fairway.

The issue I have with the tour I was considering joining is that it goes beyond simply not taking the penalty stroke. You can actually move, clean, and place the ball at any location on the course to improve your lie. You aren't dropping. You can take your ball in the rough, fluff up the grass, then place your ball on top like a tee on every single shot. How can you possibly make that equitable? In fact, it actually may give an advantage to being in the rough so you can fluff the lie.

See that is extreme we dont play that way. OB is OB. In a bunker is in a bunker. But if my opponent has a decent lie, but would have to stand in a puddle in the fairway. Move so you have a decent shot.
I want to beat my opponent when he has his best game.

No one in the league is throwing their ball from OB onto the green and carding a 2!

In reality, most the low handicappers play the ball as is. Mostly because the dont lose the ball.

The altered rules are to speed up play, and combat specific conditions on the course.