Multiple Infractions

[Club Rat]

I believe when the red stakes are not visible, then the player may call it a provisional.

But when he discovers that the ball was most likely in the hazard, then the 2nd ball would be in play as he has a ready used the option to play from previous position.

The guy should not been allowed to take the drop.

A player not familiar with the course does not give him a break, he could have inquired or proceeded forward without playing a provisional.

Club Rat

[dkolo]

I believe when the red stakes are not visible, then the player may call it a provisional. But when he discovers that the ball was most likely in the hazard, then the 2nd ball would be in play as he has a ready used the option to play from previous position. The guy should not been allowed to take the drop. A player not familiar with the course does not give him a break, he could have inquired or proceeded forward without playing a provisional. Club Rat

That can't be right. As long as one is certain it ended up in a hazard, all your hazard options are available to you. You only have to play the provisional if you get up to the area around the hazard and can't tell for sure if the ball went in the hazard or was lost outside.

[Club Rat]

I believe when the red stakes are not visible, then the player may call it a provisional.

I only stated "when the hazard is not visible"

A player on a course they had never played, may not know if there's a creek over a berm or hillside.

Club Rat

[dkolo]

I only stated "when the hazard is not visible" A player on a course they had never played, may not know if there's a creek over a berm or hillside. Club Rat

So maybe I'm confused, but I'm understanding your point to be that if you know where your tee shot ended up but don't realize before hitting your provisional that that place was a hazard, you've de facto chosen your stroke and distance option of the hazard procedures? If so, I don't think that's the case. You're hitting a provisional because you think it's lost outside a hazard; it'd be counterproductive to getting people to hit more provisionals if they would be penalized like that. But I feel like I still might be misunderstanding you, in which case, my bad! Haha.

[Club Rat]

Yes, I was only noting a scenario when it's a blind shot, a player would most likely play a provisional, being they were unfamiliar with the course.

In the OP statement the guy knew he hit into the hazard and was wrong in calling it a provisional.

Club Rat

[Fourputt]

I believe when the red stakes are not visible, then the player may call it a provisional.

But when he discovers that the ball was most likely in the hazard, then the 2nd ball would be in play as he has a ready used the option to play from previous position.

The guy should not been allowed to take the drop.

A player not familiar with the course does not give him a break, he could have inquired or proceeded forward without playing a provisional.

Club Rat

This is not right.  Since the hazard margin was not visible from where the shot was hit, a provisional ball was perfectly allowable.  When they then discovered that a hazard was the only place where a ball could be lost, the provisional ball was immediately out of play and Rule 26-1 became the operative rule for proceeding.  The player was required to follow one of the procedures under 26-1.

If he played the provisional ball, he played from a wrong place and incurred a 2 stroke penalty, which is the general penalty for breach of Rule 26 (he is in breach of Rule 26 for not following the prescribed dropping procedure).  Or he incurs the 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place... these multiple infractions always confuse me as to which takes precedence.  In any case it's two strokes in addition to the one stroke for taking relief from the water hazard.  If it was his tee shot in the hazard, he now lies 5 after playing from the wrong place (1 for the tee shot, 2 for the wrong place, 1 for the water hazard, and 1 for the stroke from the wrong place).

[Dormie1360]

This is not right.  Since the hazard margin was not visible from where the shot was hit, a provisional ball was perfectly allowable.  When they then discovered that a hazard was the only place where a ball could be lost, the provisional ball was immediately out of play and Rule 26-1 became the operative rule for proceeding.  The player was required to follow one of the procedures under 26-1.

If he played the provisional ball, he played from a wrong place and incurred a 2 stroke penalty, which is the general penalty for breach of Rule 26 (he is in breach of Rule 26 for not following the prescribed dropping procedure).  Or he incurs the 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place... these multiple infractions always confuse me as to which takes precedence.  In any case it's two strokes in addition to the one stroke for taking relief from the water hazard.  If it was his tee shot in the hazard, he now lies 5 after playing from the wrong place (1 for the tee shot, 2 for the wrong place, 1 for the water hazard, and 1 for the stroke from the wrong place).

The player incurs a 2 stroke penalty for a general breach of R26.  The penalty statement for R20-7c says "he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule ."

So when a player plays from a wrong place, (no serious breach), the 2 stroke penalty is actually a breach of the rule he did not follow correctly.

That's how I understand it anyway.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

This is not right.  Since the hazard margin was not visible from where the shot was hit, a provisional ball was perfectly allowable.  When they then discovered that a hazard was the only place where a ball could be lost, the provisional ball was immediately out of play and Rule 26-1 became the operative rule for proceeding.  The player was required to follow one of the procedures under 26-1.

If he played the provisional ball, he played from a wrong place and incurred a 2 stroke penalty, which is the general penalty for breach of Rule 26 (he is in breach of Rule 26 for not following the prescribed dropping procedure).  Or he incurs the 2 stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place... these multiple infractions always confuse me as to which takes precedence.  In any case it's two strokes in addition to the one stroke for taking relief from the water hazard.  If it was his tee shot in the hazard, he now lies 5 after playing from the wrong place (1 for the tee shot, 2 for the wrong place, 1 for the water hazard, and 1 for the stroke from the wrong place).

The player incurs a 2 stroke penalty for a general breach of R26.  The penalty statement for R20-7c says "he incurs a penalty of two strokes under the applicable Rule."

So when a player plays from a wrong place, (no serious breach), the 2 stroke penalty is actually a breach of the rule he did not follow correctly.

That's how I understand it anyway.

Works for me.  A costly mistake in any event.

[Dormie1360]

Works for me.  A costly mistake in any event.

Thinking about this further, are we sure on the ruling?  The player correctly played a provisional.  However, once the player determined his original ball was in the hazard, he should have abandoned the provisional (It was no longer in play).  Instead he played it.   Wrong ball? (R27-2c, R15-3)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Works for me.  A costly mistake in any event.

Thinking about this further, are we sure on the ruling?  The player correctly played a provisional.  However, once the player determined his original ball was in the hazard, he should have abandoned the provisional (It was no longer in play).  Instead he played it.   Wrong ball? (R27-2c, R15-3)

I believe that the provisional ball changes it status once played and becomes a legally substituted ball, but under an incorrect procedure.

[ColinL]

I believe that the provisional ball changes it status once played and becomes a legally substituted ball, but under an incorrect procedure.

Rick, that's not the way it is. It's a wrong ball. The  original ball when  known to be in a water hazard,  is the ball in play. John correctly refers you to  Rule 27-2c.  This is  the pertinent part (my bold type)

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds , the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard , the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1 . In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball , he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

A  player  who plays a wrong ball has to correct the mistake by playing his original ball.   In this case that means proceeding under Rule 26 for the ball known to be in the water hazard.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I believe that the provisional ball changes it status once played and becomes a legally substituted ball, but under an incorrect procedure.

Rick, that's not the way it is. It's a wrong ball.  The  original ball when  known to be in a water hazard,  is the ball in play.   John correctly refers you to  Rule 27-2c.  This is  the pertinent part (my bold type)

If the original ball is neither lost nor out of bounds, the player must abandon the provisional ball and continue playing the original ball. If it is known or virtually certain that the original ball is in a water hazard, the player may proceed in accordance with Rule 26-1. In either situation, if the player makes any further strokes at the provisional ball, he is playing a wrong ball and the provisions of Rule 15-3 apply.

A  player  who plays a wrong ball has to correct the mistake by playing his original ball.   In this case that means proceeding under Rule 26 for the ball known to be in the water hazard.

I stand corrected.  Yet the player could drop another ball right next to the provisional ball and play from there and it would be a wrong place, and he would not have to correct it unless it was a serious breach, and the he would be charged the same penalty.  I guess I don't understand reasoning or the actual difference here.

I've stumbled over the difference between an improperly substituted ball and a wrong ball before on the USGA Workshop exam too.  Nobody has yet managed to demonstrate a clear way to differentiate them in my mind in some situations.  This case it becomes a wrong ball, in other scenarios it's a substituted ball played incorrectly.

[Martyn W]

I stand corrected.  Yet the player could drop another ball right next to the provisional ball and play from there and it would be a wrong place, and he would not have to correct it unless it was a serious breach, and the he would be charged the same penalty.  I guess I don't understand reasoning or the actual difference here.

I've stumbled over the difference between an improperly substituted ball and a wrong ball before on the USGA Workshop exam too.  Nobody has yet managed to demonstrate a clear way to differentiate them in my mind in some situations.  This case it becomes a wrong ball, in other scenarios it's a substituted ball played incorrectly.

It can be a bit tricky; at my last workshop, Dean Alexander made this statement which may help: 'A substituted ball is NEVER a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play' (whether correctly in play or not is another matter;))  Hope this helps.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I stand corrected.  Yet the player could drop another ball right next to the provisional ball and play from there and it would be a wrong place, and he would not have to correct it unless it was a serious breach, and the he would be charged the same penalty.  I guess I don't understand reasoning or the actual difference here.

I've stumbled over the difference between an improperly substituted ball and a wrong ball before on the USGA Workshop exam too.  Nobody has yet managed to demonstrate a clear way to differentiate them in my mind in some situations.  This case it becomes a wrong ball, in other scenarios it's a substituted ball played incorrectly.

It can be a bit tricky; at my last workshop, Dean Alexander made this statement which may help: 'A substituted ball is NEVER a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play' (whether correctly in play or not is another matter;))  Hope this helps.

I'll try to keep that in mind.  Thanks.

[Dormie1360]

I guess I don't understand reasoning or the actual difference here.

I've stumbled over the difference between an improperly substituted ball and a wrong ball before on the USGA Workshop exam too.  Nobody has yet managed to demonstrate a clear way to differentiate them in my mind in some situations.  This case it becomes a wrong ball, in other scenarios it's a substituted ball played incorrectly.

I think you understand it pretty well. Here's how I understand it.

If a player physically puts his hand on " any " ball and puts it into play it is a substituted ball , not a wrong ball.  For example, if a player takes a swipe at a ball in a bush that isn't his, he has made a stroke at a wrong ball.  If the player had first removed the ball from the bush and drops it, for whatever reason, it's now a substituted ball.  Doesn't matter if the ball was his or not.

In this particular case the player has played two balls under the provisional rule, however R27-2c tells the player which ball is in play.  That means the other ball is not in play .  A ball not in play is, by definition, a wrong ball.  You are correct, however, it the player were to pick up the provisional and then drop it, it is no longer a wrong ball, it is an incorrectly substituted ball.

[iacas]

It can be a bit tricky; at my last workshop, Dean Alexander made this statement which may help: 'A substituted ball is NEVER a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play' (whether correctly in play or not is another matter;))  Hope this helps.

Totally OT, but for a split second, I thought perhaps you got a tip from MacGyver. :)

But that's Richard Dean Anderson, so it's not really even as close as I thought at first.

[Elmer]

Totally OT, but for a split second, I thought perhaps you got a tip from MacGyver. :)

But that's Richard Dean Anderson, so it's not really even as close as I thought at first.

MacGyver could teach you how to hole out from the fairway only using a golf towel and a paperclip!

[bubble]

Concerning rule violations in medalplay/strokeplay dont insist on anything hole by hole , (play your round knowing they are disqualified and relieve yourself of the pressure) just refuse to sign the card and and make your remarks on the 19th bar hole (ask for them to pay drinks before this since they played awesome). the players are disqualified point blank. this is not golf.

in match play thought clame the hole lost by the opponent before you tee up the next shot and before you leave the 18th green concerning an infraction on that hole .

have a rules book in the bag to show why (i.e. you blame you prouve, then with his rules book he responds or accepts) or call in for help before your tee up if arguments are made back and forth.

you say " Par 3 hole and Mr. Charles and I jump up to hit. Charles hits an iron on the left fringe, pin high, and Mr. Able says "What did you hit, Charles?" Charles says 'that was my pretty 5 iron" I'm laughing to myself at this point."

if mister able and team have already hit their tee shots there is no penalty. (The question can not help them on the shot already made). Otherwise it's 2 strokes for advice and 2 strokes for responding. do not respond other wise than "requesting advice is a 2 shot penalty for you, I won't take 2 shots penalty myself for responding".

can't see any other non violation. the third violation is a disqualifier if the player takes the net tee before fixing the damage with a 2 stroke penalty to add on the total hole score.

anyway dont loose your time, just read the rules book, takes 20 minutes, then read it again, then look at decisions when ruling questions you (takes 5 minutes).