Killing Endangered Animals for Sport? Good Idea?

[Gunther]

That would change everything. Killing the lion illegally basically makes him a poacher.

If he didn't have a permit, what was the $70K for? Sounds again like a problem for the guide, not the hunter. We'll see how it plays out.

[billchao]

If he didn't have a permit, what was the $70K for? Sounds again like a problem for the guide, not the hunter. We'll see how it plays out.

Presumably for the guides? It does sound like they could have misrepresented themselves. Not enough information to make that determination and I'm not one to speculate.

[Gunther]

Presumably for the guides? It does sound like they could have misrepresented themselves. Not enough information to make that determination and I'm not one to speculate.

Sure, agree, as I said, time will tell. I've never been on an exotic hunting trip but I have been on a few fishing trips to Alaska and other pretty cool places. The prices quoted always include licenses or permits. I'm guessing same would be true for exotic hunts. Edit: actually, I have been on an exotic hunt...forgot. When I was 19, I went to Vermont to hunt for mouflon. My dad paid and the license and permit were included. Glad I got one.

[Golfingdad]

If he didn't have a permit, what was the $70K for? Sounds again like a problem for the guide, not the hunter. We'll see how it plays out.

Dont you think the hunter bears responsibility for checking out his guides? If ignorance of the rules isn't even a good enough excuse to avoid a two stroke penalty in a $5 golf match, is think it probably wouldn't fly when we're talking about killing animals. Besides, does the legality matter that much? Isn't it more about having some ethics?

[Gunther]

Dont you think the hunter bears responsibility for checking out his guides? If ignorance of the rules isn't even a good enough excuse to avoid a two stroke penalty in a $5 golf match, is think it probably wouldn't fly when we're talking about killing animals. Besides, does the legality matter that much? Isn't it more about having some ethics?

Yes, Hunter would but my guess is the guide assured it and maybe even had him sign something (which you usually do with licenses or permits). That's my gut feeling, this hunter is experienced. As I've said, we'll see but my guess is the hunter will not be culpable in the end. Your ethics question isn't relevant, hunting is ethical in many people's minds, including mine.

[Grndslmhttr3]

I don't understand why you'd want to kill a creature like that in the first place. What he did was basically on the same level as killing a zoo animal (or attempt to since he didn't actually take the fatal shot); it's one of the least impressive "feats" anyone could ever brag about.

Hunting has its places, like population control (i.e. deer hunting), and that I don't really have an issue with that. However, with the lion, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to kill a defenseless creature like that. I just don't get it.

[newtogolf]

I don't understand why you'd want to kill a creature like that in the first place. What he did was basically on the same level as killing a zoo animal (or attempt to since he didn't actually take the fatal shot); it's one of the least impressive "feats" anyone could ever brag about.

Hunting has its places, like population control (i.e. deer hunting), and that I don't really have an issue with that. However, with the lion, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever to kill a defenseless creature like that. I just don't get it.

It's a primal, macho thing that some people enjoy, the thrill of the hunt and having a trophy to place on the wall.  Fisherman go out fishing for shark, marlin and sailfish for similar reasons since with the exception of a few sharks (mako and porbeagle) none are really caught for food.  I've never been a hunter but I was a fisherman and the adrenaline rush you get from seeing a 500lb mako shark or blue marlin launch itself out of the water is something I'll never forget.

It seems people don't get too upset when mean ole nasty sharks are killed so their jaws can be mounted and showcased but there's a social media revolution because a lion named Cecil was hunted for a trophy.  Should we even start to discuss what happens to bulls during bullfights or how about the number of dogs and cats owners abuse, neglect and let roam the streets.

I'm not defending the dentist, I'm just trying to put this into perspective since it seems the whole world is losing their mind over this one incident as if it's isolated.

[Golfingdad]

Yes, Hunter would but my guess is the guide assured it and maybe even had him sign something (which you usually do with licenses or permits). That's my gut feeling, this hunter is experienced. As I've said, we'll see but my guess is the hunter will not be culpable in the end. Your ethics question isn't relevant, hunting is ethical in many people's minds, including mine.

Only you think it's irrelevant because only you assume I'm saying hunting is unethical. That's not remotely what I'm saying, because what this guy did wasn't remotely hunting. Grndslmhttr said it well above. Dude basically killed a zoo animal. Newtogolf, if somebody started a thread about those other things it's a safe bet we'd have some opinions on here for those too. :)

[RJH999]

This dumbass need to find a new damn hobby. Like golf!

[rkim291968]

It seems people don't get too upset when mean ole nasty sharks are killed so their jaws can be mounted and showcased but there's a social media revolution because a lion named Cecil was hunted for a trophy.  Should we even start to discuss what happens to bulls during bullfights or how about the number of dogs and cats owners abuse, neglect and let roam the streets.

I'm not defending the dentist, I'm just trying to put this into perspective since it seems the whole world is losing their mind over this one incident as if it's isolated.

I think the main difference is that there are only 20000 - 25000 lions left on earth.  Luring it out, shooting it with arrow and killing it 40 hours later added to the outrage.

[Phil McGleno]

Only you think it's irrelevant because only you assume I'm saying hunting is unethical. That's not remotely what I'm saying, because what this guy did wasn't remotely hunting. Grndslmhttr said it well above. Dude basically killed a zoo animal.

Gunther assuming things and making sweeping comments based on those assumptions?-NO, Never! It was not a zoo animal. Just because he was known to local tour guides does not make him a zoo animal. I doubt that anyone hand fed him. He was not given medication or routine checkups. He was free to roam about as he wanted. I do not support killing this particular animal but let us not sensationalize things by saying he was a zoo animal. It only hurts your argument in the end to go sensationalist.

[Gunther]

Only you think it's irrelevant because only you assume I'm saying hunting is unethical. That's not remotely what I'm saying, because what this guy did wasn't remotely hunting. Grndslmhttr said it well above. Dude basically killed a zoo animal. Newtogolf, if somebody started a thread about those other things it's a safe bet we'd have some opinions on here for those too. :)

You may not have read some of the earlier posts: he is claiming he wasn't aware it was a relatively tame animal. The guides lured it out of the park unbeknownst to him. So, if I'm operating under that assumption, as I had indicated, why would I think your ethics comment had to do with shooting a zoo animal vs. exotic hunting in general?

[David in FL]

It was not a zoo animal. Just because he was known to local tour guides does not make him a zoo animal. I doubt that anyone hand fed him. He was not given medication or routine checkups. He was free to roam about as he wanted. I do not support killing this particular animal but let us not sensationalize things by saying he was a zoo animal. It only hurts your argument in the end to go sensationalist.

Agree. To put into further perspective, Hwange National Park is over 5600 square miles in size. That's more than 60% bigger than Yellowstone National Park. And yes, while no hunting is allowed in Yellowstone, some of the best, most productive big game hunting in all the U.S. occurs immediately adjacent to it. With many of the same animals wandering in or out of the national park daily. Hunters hunt where the animals are. It's not unusual, unethical, nor illegal to hunt adjacent to protected areas, whether in Zimbabwe, in the U.S., or anywhere else. The only issue here for me has nothing to do with the individual animal, but whether or not any laws were broken in this particular hunt. If so, then appropriate action should be taken.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

It was not a zoo animal. Just because he was known to local tour guides does not make him a zoo animal. I doubt that anyone hand fed him. He was not given medication or routine checkups. He was free to roam about as he wanted.

I do not support killing this particular animal but let us not sensationalize things by saying he was a zoo animal. It only hurts your argument in the end to go sensationalist.

Agree.

To put into further perspective, Hwange National Park is over 5600 square miles in size. That's more than 60% bigger than Yellowstone National Park. And yes, while no hunting is allowed in Yellowstone, some of the best, most productive big game hunting in all the U.S. occurs immediately adjacent to it. With many of the same animals wandering in or out of the national park daily. Hunters hunt where the animals are. It's not unusual, unethical, nor illegal to hunt adjacent to protected areas, whether in Zimbabwe, in the U.S., or anywhere else.

The only issue here for me has nothing to do with the individual animal, but whether or not any laws were broken in this particular hunt. If so, then appropriate action should be taken.

Or fish..

Some of the best trout fishing around the Apostle Islands is near the fish refuge.  With GPS units, the charter captains can run their boats right down the line.

[Hatchman]

Obama Administration Intervening - partial quote "Rep. Betty McCollum, a Minnesota Democrat, is calling on U.S. officials to probe Cecil's killing. "To bait and kill a threatened animal, like this African lion, for sport cannot be called hunting, but rather a disgraceful display of callous cruelty. For those of us committed to ending poaching of iconic African species I strongly believe the U.S. Attorneys' Office and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should investigate whether U.S. laws were violated related to conspiracy, bribery of foreign officials, and the illegal hunting of a protected species or animal," McCollum said in a statement. According to multiple press accounts, Palmer lured Cecil out of Hwange National Park by strapping a dead animal to a car as bait, and he shot the lion with a crossbow. The hunting party then tracked the wounded Cecil for 40 hours until Palmer killed the lion with a gun and beheaded him."

[Hatchman]

Need I say more. Not his first time. BLOOMINGTON, Minn. -- An avid Minnesota hunter accused of illegally killing a protected lion in Zimbabwe has a felony on his record related to shooting a black bear in Wisconsin, according to federal court records. Walter Palmer, 55, of the Minneapolis suburb of Eden Prairie, pleaded guilty in 2008 to making false statements to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service about a black bear he fatally shot in western Wisconsin. Palmer had a permit to hunt but shot the animal outside the authorized zone in 2006, then tried to pass it off as being killed elsewhere, according to court documents. He was given one year probation and fined nearly $3,000.

[Golfingdad]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno


Gunther assuming things and making sweeping comments based on those assumptions?-NO, Never!

It was not a zoo animal. Just because he was known to local tour guides does not make him a zoo animal. I doubt that anyone hand fed him. He was not given medication or routine checkups. He was free to roam about as he wanted.

I do not support killing this particular animal but let us not sensationalize things by saying he was a zoo animal. It only hurts your argument in the end to go sensationalist.

Fair point.  I did get a little hyperbolic there, eh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunther


You may not have read some of the earlier posts: he is claiming he wasn't aware it was a relatively tame animal. The guides lured it out of the park unbeknownst to him. So, if I'm operating under that assumption, as I had indicated, why would I think your ethics comment had to do with shooting a zoo animal vs. exotic hunting in general?

Again, it sounds like your defense of this guy is that it's ok for him to have been ignorant of the rules and regs?  Considering he's an avid big game hunter with a shady past , I find it hard to believe that he didn't know exactly what was going on.  Regardless, even if he didn't that doesn't excuse him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in FL


The only issue here for me has nothing to do with the individual animal, but whether or not any laws were broken in this particular hunt. If so, then appropriate action should be taken.

Hmmm, I though you were the "personal responsibilty" guy?  Who was it that said ...

Quote:

I don't care what "the law" says. If I do something that hurts another person or damages their property, I accept responsibility for that.

Sadly, I recognize that others may live by a somewhat lesser moral standard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatchman

Obama Administration Intervening - partial quote

"Rep. Betty McCollum, a Minnesota Democrat, is calling on U.S. officials to probe Cecil's killing.

"To bait and kill a threatened animal, like this African lion, for sport cannot be called hunting, but rather a disgraceful display of callous cruelty. For those of us committed to ending poaching of iconic African species I strongly believe the U.S. Attorneys' Office and U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service should investigate whether U.S. laws were violated related to conspiracy, bribery of foreign officials, and the illegal hunting of a protected species or animal," McCollum said in a statement.

According to multiple press accounts, Palmer lured Cecil out of Hwange National Park by strapping a dead animal to a car as bait, and he shot the lion with a crossbow. The hunting party then tracked the wounded Cecil for 40 hours until Palmer killed the lion with a gun and beheaded him."

Another good explanation of what I meant in regards to the dentists lack of ethics.  It has nothing to do with hunting in general.

[David in FL]

Hmmm, I though you were the "personal responsibilty" guy?  Who was it that [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/t/76349/sliced-a-ball-into-an-expensive-window-did-i-do-the-right-thing/30_30#post_1034662]said[/URL] ...

I don't consider hunting wrong. If the hunt was legal, he has nothing to "take responsibility" for. If not, then the offending parties should be held accountable....exactly as I said. You'll also note that, not knowing, I haven't jumped to any conclusions. Except to say in my first post that the original article didn't indicate that he'd done anything wrong, I've neither defended, nor condemned the hunt itself. I simply educated some people who know little or nothing about hunting other than what they're reading here. I see no contradiction at all in my statements. Quite the opposite. I remain consistent.