Killing Endangered Animals for Sport? Good Idea?

[Lihu]

@Lihu (TST resident archer) can tell us how possible it is to hit a playing card from 100 yards out.   That seems to be an Olympic level athlete accuracy.

With an Olympic bow, yes. Compound archers used to have the same target sizes, but they changed it as technology made them a lot more accurate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Target_archery

For instance, the indoor ten ring are the size of a quarter for FITA and a little smaller than a dime for compound at 18m.

I'm more of a FITA style archer, but here's a typical compound ASA 3D tournament.

The 12 ring is pretty small. . .

[turtleback]

I only quoted from the story I linked.. Why would I not? Here I just clicked on the link again and here is the part about the luring.

Ahhhh, now I get it.  The title at the top of your post was a link!  I had no idea, as that is not how links usually look here and on most boards.  And you had a much more link-looking link in your first quote box so I assumed that was the link you were talking about.

[Abu3baid]

Ahhhh, now I get it.  The title at the top of your post was a link!  I had no idea, as that is not how links usually look here and on most boards.  And you had a much more link-looking link in your first quote box so I assumed that was the link you were talking about.

Yeah the link in the quote box was from the story its self.. I will make it blue going forward so it looks more like a link.. It just looks cleaner than having the who site address which can get quite long.

[Golfingdad]

Ahhhh, now I get it.  The title at the top of your post was a link!  I had no idea, as that is not how links usually look here and on most boards.  And you had a much more link-looking link in your first quote box so I assumed that was the link you were talking about.

Actually, that dark red is the default link color on here.  He tried to make it stand out with bigger text, but otherwise, that's normal.  I usually try and add an underline to mine, but it doesn't default that way.

Perhaps in the future I should make a point to manually change the text color to blue or something else that will stand out more, though.

[billchao]

Killing a lion, cutting off its head, skinning it, and leaving the carcass to rot is a sign of a mental disorder in my opinion.

To be fair, it's Africa. That carcass won't last very long out there, so it's not going to waste.

[14ledo81]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 14ledo81

Really?

Leaving the small peen out of it (maybe I do..irrelevant) , I don't believe I have a psychological problem because I hunt animals for sport.

Like I said before, I do eat the deer I kill. I don't try to pretend it is only about the meat though. If it were, I could get meat other ways at a much lower cost.

Got a little carried away with the rhetoric because I feel strongly about this topic. Sport hunting for deer where you eat the meat is far different. Killing a lion, cutting off its head, skinning it, and leaving the carcass to rot is a sign of a mental disorder in my opinion. I seriously believe that. Maybe not on par with paranoid schizophrenia, but truly. In the 21st century, with the massive information about how "big game" are becoming rapidly extinct, there's no reason to get your kicks out of killing animals for pure sport. Even if lions are not currently endangered, rhinos, certain elephants, jaguars, gorillas, etc. all are. It won't be long for lions. If we are to embrace human evolution, it runs the gamut. There are myriad ways to get excitement in the 21st century that don't involve endangering the existence of beautiful animals. I don't apologize for my position and don't care if others think I'm a jerk for it. Am I a vegan? No, but I don't eat meat far as often as I once did after learning about the meat industry. I apologize personally to you, sir, but I hope I have inspired others to think about this topic a bit more.

I wonder how much of your feelings are due to the fact that these animals (and the lion that was killed), are exotic "big game" animals to us here in the states.  Hunting elk, whitetail, black bear, ducks/geese, etc..  seems different doesn't it?

I only bring this side because I feel the vast majority of hunters partake in the sport for the "thrill".  I also feel hunting is necessary.

When I took a trapping class a few years back, the instructor put it very clear (to me).  He said "animal rights activists are for individual animal welfare (see Cecil the lion), hunters/trappers are for (animal) population welfare."

[Hatchman]

Here is another shot of Cecil's hunter who an i to assume for animal population welfare as one poster might believe. Can't even behave in human a population with a $127,000 settlement for repeated sexual harassment.

[mmoan2]

I wonder how much of your feelings are due to the fact that these animals (and the lion that was killed), are exotic "big game" animals to us here in the states.  Hunting elk, whitetail, black bear, ducks/geese, etc..  seems different doesn't it?

I only bring this side because I feel the vast majority of hunters partake in the sport for the "thrill".  I also feel hunting is necessary.

When I took a trapping class a few years back, the instructor put it very clear (to me).  He said "animal rights activists are for individual animal welfare (see Cecil the lion), hunters/trappers are for (animal) population welfare."

One reason I see it as different because those populations proliferate. If there were less than 200 elk left on Earth (the count of Bengal Tigers right now), I'd be against killing them for sport as well. Also, I've never heard of someone going to Africa to kill tigers, lions, or elephants for steak. It's to put a trophy on the wall and feel like a big shot. It's a thrill as you say.

I am not a specialist on animal population, but I have to believe that populations of animals would be just fine without hunters shooting them. Show me an isolated incident where human habitats are being encroached upon by rampant deer populations and I would grant you hunting MIGHT be necessary. Do you honestly hunt to help control the animal population, or do you do it for fun and use that argument as an excuse? When you kill a black bear, do you do it to protect the deer it might go eat? Seriously?

In the long run, I'm not that adverse to hunting elk, geese, etc. I think it sucks unless you respect the animal by at least using its body for food, pelt for clothing, etc., but I pick my battles. When it comes to hunting for pure sport and the animals are almost extinct, I have a serious problem with it. Whether you think a deity gave humans such marvelous brains or it was evolution, I think it is our job as stewards of the planet to be responsible with our leisure. I think at last count there was 1 male white South African rhino in existence of breeding age. Is it really worth some money or a quick thrill to be the guy who bagged the last one? Does your ego need that much stroking that you need to feel strong by killing a defenseless animal with a high-powered rifle? There's countless other ways to get off in the 21st century.

[David in FL]

Here is another shot of Cecil's hunter who an i to assume for animal population welfare as one poster might believe. Can't even behave in human a population with a $127,000 settlement for repeated sexual harassment.

Completely Off Topic.

[Golfingdad]

I think at last count there was 1 male white South African rhino in existence of breeding age.

I think you're thinking of the Northern White Rhino, and, yeah, there is only one male left.  And there are only 3 females total.  (One of them is at the San Diego Safari Park, the rest in Kenya)

[mmoan2]

I think you're thinking of the Northern White Rhino, and, yeah, there is only one male left.  And there are only 3 females total.  (One of them is at the San Diego Safari Park, the rest in Kenya)

That's the one. I hope they develop rhino-Viagra soon. Anyway, enough ranting.

[mdl]

Interesting story that gives a good view from both sides on trophy hunting big game in Africa.

http://www.vox.com/2015/7/29/9069795/cecil-the-lion-hunting

Short of it is that it goes both ways.  When hunting of the white rhino in South Africa was legalized and regulated with decently enforced quotas, their value to the locals skyrocketed and the population boomed from 100 to 10k!

With lions in particular though, legalized hunting has worked very poorly.  Seems like this is true generally around Africa, but specifically around the park where this lion was killed, hunting was entirely banned after a study concluded they were struggling, and the population grew 50%.  The nature of lion prides also seems to be an issue, where trophy hunters prefer males.  If they kill males younger than ~6, they never get to reproduce.  If they kill pride leading males whose territory is near the edge of the park, new males from further in the park come out and compete to take over the pride, possibly killing each other, and with the winner likely killing all the existing cubs.  And then a new dominant male is roaming near the edge of the park and the process will repeat with the next trophy hunt.

[billchao]

One reason I see it as different because those populations proliferate. If there were less than 200 elk left on Earth (the count of Bengal Tigers right now), I'd be against killing them for sport as well. Also, I've never heard of someone going to Africa to kill tigers, lions, or elephants for steak. It's to put a trophy on the wall and feel like a big shot. It's a thrill as you say.

Nobody goes to Africa to hunt tigers.

I am not a specialist on animal population, but I have to believe that populations of animals would be just fine without hunters shooting them. Show me an isolated incident where human habitats are being encroached upon by rampant deer populations and I would grant you hunting MIGHT be necessary. Do you honestly hunt to help control the animal population, or do you do it for fun and use that argument as an excuse? When you kill a black bear, do you do it to protect the deer it might go eat? Seriously?

The issue is a lot more complicated than just big game hunters killing off animals for trophies. In the grand scheme of things, I bet they don't diminish animal populations all that much. These animals are dying off because they're losing their habitats due to human populations increasing and needing more space, pollution, and the environmental factors that result from them. A lot are driven away from their traditional stomping grounds because they are disruptive to the local human population (ever see what an elephant can do to a village or a herd of antelope can do to farmland?). Many with marketable features are simply killed (illegally) for monetary gain.

Very few of these dead animals end up on somebody's trophy wall. One can argue the opposite, really. If trophy hunts were a sustainable business, people would try to breed animals for that purpose and the populations would increase. I talked about the scimitar-horned oryx a while back. If it wasn't for hunting ranches, these animals would likely be extinct altogether.

I think at last count there was 1 male white South African rhino in existence of breeding age. Is it really worth some money or a quick thrill to be the guy who bagged the last one?

You've got your rhino species mixed up as @Golfingdad mentioned, but rhinos are going extinct because their horns are being harvested for quack medicine, not because they're hunted for trophies. Rhinos would actually benefit from rhino horns being legally sold in the market. They are made of keratin and can regrow, so there's actually no reason they can't be farmed for their horns. This would have the additional benefit of driving rhino horn prices down, making it less profitable for poachers.

All you'd have to do is tranquilize them and cut them off and they're perfectly fine. The horns don't really serve a purpose. In fact, that's exactly what a lot of wildlife conservation groups in Africa do: they cut the horns off the rhinos in their reservations so that poachers have no reason to kill them.

[Hatchman]

Completely Off Topic.

Completely disagree. The big game bear trophy poach taken out of state case vs the Feds was referenced in the pleading. 40 miles from designated permitted area then lied about it at check in and goes towards his credibility in this case. So it's related and speaks volumes about the man I believe. He now faces the same U.S. agency, who by the way states they are looking for him at home and office for possibly violation of U.S. Lacey Law.

[14ledo81]

[QUOTE name="14ledo81" url="/t/83520/killing-endangered-animals-for-sport-good-idea/90#post_1177272"]   I wonder how much of your feelings are due to the fact that these animals (and the lion that was killed), are exotic "big game" animals to us here in the states.  Hunting elk, whitetail, black bear, ducks/geese, etc..  seems different doesn't it? I only bring this side because I feel the vast majority of hunters partake in the sport for the "thrill".  I also feel hunting is necessary. When I took a trapping class a few years back, the instructor put it very clear (to me).  He said "animal rights activists are for individual animal welfare (see Cecil the lion), hunters/trappers are for (animal) population welfare." [/QUOTE] One reason I see it as different because those populations proliferate. If there were less than 200 elk left on Earth (the count of Bengal Tigers right now), I'd be against killing them for sport as well. Also, I've never heard of someone going to Africa to kill tigers, lions, or elephants for steak. It's to put a trophy on the wall and feel like a big shot. It's a thrill as you say. I am not a specialist on animal population, but I have to believe that populations of animals would be just fine without hunters shooting them. Show me an isolated incident where human habitats are being encroached upon by rampant deer populations and I would grant you hunting MIGHT be necessary. Do you honestly hunt to help control the animal population, or do you do it for fun and use that argument as an excuse? When you kill a black bear, do you do it to protect the deer it might go eat? Seriously? In the long run, I'm not that adverse to hunting elk, geese, etc. I think it sucks unless you respect the animal by at least using its body for food, pelt for clothing, etc., but I pick my battles. When it comes to hunting for pure sport and the animals are almost extinct, I have a serious problem with it. Whether you think a deity gave humans such marvelous brains or it was evolution, I think it is our job as stewards of the planet to be responsible with our leisure. I think at last count there was 1 male white South African rhino in existence of breeding age. Is it really worth some money or a quick thrill to be the guy who bagged the last one? Does your ego need that much stroking that you need to feel strong by killing a defenseless animal with a high-powered rifle? There's countless other ways to get off in the 21st century.

On my phone, so I will try to respond to each point in order. I would also be against hunting elk (or any animal) if there was only 200 left. Remember the hunter cares about population welfare. I also think animal populations would be fine (for the most part) without hunting. Hunters/trappers take what is known as the harvestable surplus. Without hunting a certain amount of animals would die anyway. The woods/land can only support just so many animals. Also the city of Duluth has a citywide deer hunt. I am not sure of the numbers, but they want a fair amount of deer removed from city limits. This could probably be done using military, but why not make some money (state/city) instead of costing tax payers... I do not hunt to help the population. I also do not make excuses for the reasons I hunt. I hunt for the recreation. Side benefits are population control, meat to eat, license sales for the state, etc. Again I make no excuses for the reasons I hunt, and feel no need to do so. We agree on (not) hunting animals with small populations. Population welfare... Last point. Ego has nothing to do with it. Hunting (and muskie fishing) gives me heart pounding excitement. That is 99% of the reason why I do it. Those who have experienced it will understand where I am coming from. Those who have not, will probably not be able to relate. Does all recreation count as "getting off"?

[Shorty]

I hunt for the recreation. Side benefits are population control, meat to eat, license sales for the state, etc. Again I make no excuses for the reasons I hunt, and feel no need to do so.

We agree on (not) hunting animals with small populations. Population welfare...

Last point. Ego has nothing to do with it. Hunting (and muskie fishing) gives me heart pounding excitement. That is 99% of the reason why I do it. Those who have experienced it will understand where I am coming from. Those who have not, will probably not be able to relate.

Does all recreation count as "getting off"?

Not all recreation involves the killing and suffering of an innocent party.

How would you feel if someone else's "recreation" was to hunt you? Would you respect their desire to make no excuses for it as you do?

It is one thing to hunt for food. To pretend to do it for population control is disingenuous. To admit doing it for fun is (in my mind) abhorrent and despicable.

And for the record I have never had the desire to "relate" to the killing of animals for fun or "getting off".

[Silent]

Not all recreation involves the killing and suffering of an innocent party.

How would you feel if someone else's "recreation" was to hunt you? Would you respect their desire to make no excuses for it as you do?

It is one thing to hunt for food. To pretend to do it for population control is disingenuous. To admit doing it for fun is (in my mind) abhorrent and despicable.

And for the record I have never had the desire to "relate" to the killing of animals for fun or "getting off".

I guess the same as if someone is hunting you because he/she wants to eat you. Not because they are so damn hungry and there's nothing else to eat, but because they like the taste of your meat better than the tastes of products that don't involve killing and suffering of an innocent party. (which is fine by me, love meat myself, I just don't see that much difference between eating meat simply because you like it, and hunting for sport; both are furfulling a 'need' to your liking, not a way to survive).

[Hatchman]

On my phone, so I will try to respond to each point in order. I would also be against hunting elk (or any animal) if there was only 200 left. Remember the hunter cares about population welfare. I also think animal populations would be fine (for the most part) without hunting. Hunters/trappers take what is known as the harvestable surplus. Without hunting a certain amount of animals would die anyway. The woods/land can only support just so many animals. Also the city of Duluth has a citywide deer hunt. I am not sure of the numbers, but they want a fair amount of deer removed from city limits. This could probably be done using military, but why not make some money (state/city) instead of costing tax payers... I do not hunt to help the population. I also do not make excuses for the reasons I hunt. I hunt for the recreation. Side benefits are population control, meat to eat, license sales for the state, etc. Again I make no excuses for the reasons I hunt, and feel no need to do so. We agree on (not) hunting animals with small populations. Population welfare... Last point. Ego has nothing to do with it. Hunting (and muskie fishing) gives me heart pounding excitement. That is 99% of the reason why I do it. Those who have experienced it will understand where I am coming from. Those who have not, will probably not be able to relate. Does all recreation count as "getting off"?

Very interesting but not a well thought out or compelling argument. Fish and game are resources protected under Fed and State regs. Depending where their located and what type they are. Interstate or out of country collection and transport back to U.S. becomes another liability. Your city harvest is state regulated much like the rattlesnake harvest. Use Military, what are you thinking? Maybe not ego is driving you but your comment about heart pounding excitement when fishing speaks to the core of this delima.