Water Hazard Penalty Question

[No Mulligans]

I'd entertain this hypothetical and research this in my rules book if you could convince me that this scenario actually exists somewhere.  I don't think it does.

[mdl]

@David in FL aring that up.  I guess I'd never looked into water hazard versus lateral water hazard.  Are there any hard and fast rules about what should or should not be considered a lateral water hazard?  Is it possible for the same lake to be both a lateral water hazard and just a water hazard?

For instance, what if a lake borders the left side of the fairway, then widens out creating a forced carry to the, say, peninsula green with the peninsula coming from behind the hole?  Is that a lateral hazard to the left of the fairway and a hazard on the approach, one or the other the whole way?

[DrvFrShow]

He'd drop a ball on a line where his ball first crossed the hazard and the flag and can go as far back from the yellow line as he wants. OR can take stroke and distance and re-tee.

[David in FL]

@David in FL , thanks for clearing that up.  I guess I'd never looked into water hazard versus lateral water hazard.  Are there any hard and fast rules about what should or should not be considered a lateral water hazard? Is it possible for the same lake to be both a lateral water hazard and just a water hazard? For instance, what if a lake borders the left side of the fairway, then widens out creating a forced carry to the, say, peninsula green with the peninsula coming from behind the hole?  Is that a lateral hazard to the left of the fairway and a hazard on the approach, one or the other the whole way?

Yep, that can absolutely happen!

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I'd entertain this hypothetical and research this in my rules book if you could convince me that this scenario actually exists somewhere.  I don't think it does.

You don't think there is a hole in existence where there is a 16' section of curved hazard line equidistant from the hole over the back portion of the green? @David in FL already said there are 2 holes locally that must fit that description as they use the local rule allowing a provisional if you aren't sure. You're saying there is no situation where the hazard is shaped behind the green in such a manner that you can't find a place to drop that's not "nearer to the hole"? This seems like it could occur easily, if there is a hazard line surrounding a hole over the back of a green.

[Martyn W]

That's what I suspected you meant. Yep, you're wrong. But it's a common mistake.

Assuming the water hazard in the OP is not marked (incorrectly) as a lateral hazard, then the ball must be dropped behind the hazard. You may not drop it on the side nearest the green.

26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard

It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having been struck toward a water hazard is in the hazard. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.

If a ball is found in a water hazard or if it is known or virtually certain that a ball that has not been found is in the water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:

a. Proceed under the stroke and distance provision of Rule 27-1 by playing a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or

b. Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or

David,

I have to disagree with your statement that it is incorrect to mark the back of an island green as a LWH. TPC 17 was marked that way for many years. Also, the USGA policy (which, admittedly differs with the PGA of America policy) is that the default marking is always yellow. Mark it yellow unless there is a good reason not to. That 'good reason' is usually that option 26-1b is impracticable. In the current scenario, we can assume that there is nowhere to go under 26-1b therefore making the LWH marking appropriate.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

David,             I have to disagree with your statement that it is incorrect to mark the back of an island green as a LWH. TPC 17 was marked that way for many years. Also, the USGA policy (which, admittedly differs with the PGA of America policy) is that the default marking is always yellow. Mark it yellow unless there is a good reason not to. That 'good reason' is usually that option 26-1b is impracticable. In the current scenario, we can assume that there is nowhere to go under 26-1b therefore making the LWH marking appropriate.

Even if the hazard over the back of the green is marked red (LWH), I'm saying there isn't a spot to drop that is within 2 club lengths and NOT closer to the hole. So your only option is to re-hit from tee.

[Martyn W]

Even if the hazard over the back of the green is marked red (LWH), I'm saying there isn't a spot to drop that is within 2 club lengths and NOT closer to the hole. So your only option is to re-hit from tee.

Almost geometrically impossible, I had a ruling last week at the PGA section championship (you are probably familiar with #2 at Grande Dunes Resort course?) on the right side of the green where the drop was literally 2 inches from the margin!

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Almost geometrically impossible, I had a ruling last week at the PGA section championship (you are probably familiar with #2 at Grande Dunes Resort course?) on the right side of the green where the drop was literally 2 inches from the margin!

I'm familiar with the course and the hole. My co-worker played in the event. But I am picturing a much different scenario. Something more like this: Let's assume that the 8' arc of hazard on either side of where my ball crossed the hazard is equidistant from the hole. This is what I was picturing in my hypothetical example. * tough to find an exact hole match on short notice *

[Martyn W]

I'm familiar with the course and the hole. My co-worker played in the event. But I am picturing a much different scenario.

Something more like this:

Okay, so show me a hole location and point of entry  where 26-1ci is impossible.

[No Mulligans]

You don't think there is a hole in existence where there is a 16' section of curved hazard line equidistant from the hole over the back portion of the green?

There probably is but if there was no relief other than re-teeing using the water hazard rules then I think the course designer would put in a drop area that would be closer to the hole than the tee box.

[No Mulligans]

I'm familiar with the course and the hole. My co-worker played in the event. But I am picturing a much different scenario.

Something more like this:

Let's assume that the 8' arc of hazard on either side of where my ball crossed the hazard is equidistant from the hole. This is what I was picturing in my hypothetical example.

* tough to find an exact hole match on short notice *

Is there a drop area on that hole?

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

There probably is but if there was no relief other than re-teeing using the water hazard rules then I think the course designer would put in a drop area that would be closer to the hole than the tee box.

Ok, but it's hypothetical. I already stated there is no drop area.

[DrvFrShow]

A back pin placement would make it impossible.

Well it's obvious there needs to be a drop zone on that hole probably north west of the island across from the cart path. I hate the idea of island greens.

In a situation like you describe, dunk two and carry across to the fringe and chip on until the course fixes the problem by putting in a drop zone. Rules or not, it's totally stupid to have to keep hitting balls into a hazard like that. Holes like this are for professional golfers, and even TPC Sawgrass has a drop zone, which is no picnic either.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Okay, so show me a hole location and point of entry  where 26-1ci is impossible.

Just picture a back pin that is equidistant from a 16' arc where my ball crossed the hazard in the back. I'm on my mobile and can't really "draw" on the diagram. [quote name="No Mulligans" url="/t/83941/water-hazard-penalty-question/30#post_1187466"] Is there a drop area on that hole? [/quote] I honestly have no idea. It's not a local course. It's in upstate NY and I played it as a teen. It came to mind as an example of my hypothetical.

[rogolf]

Let's not forget about 26-1c(ii) for a LWH, a point on an opposite margin equidistant from the hole to where the ball last crossed the margin of the LWH.

And drvfrshow, let's forget about where the ball first crossed the margin of the WH or LWH, that point is irrelevant; the only relevant point is where the ball last crossed the margin of the WH/LWH.

[Martyn W]

Let's not forget about 26-1c(ii) for a LWH, a point on an opposite margin equidistant from the hole to where the ball last crossed the margin of the LWH.

And drvfrshow, let's forget about where the ball first crossed the margin of the WH or LWH, that point is irrelevant; the only relevant point is where the ball last crossed the margin of the WH/LWH.

In the case of an island green or similar there is not going to be an opposite margin. To invoke this option there must be nothing but hazard between the two points.

We don't want people to think that if the ball crossed the margin at the back of the green 15 yards from the hole, he may drop at any point on the margin 15 yards from the hole, do we? ;)

26-1/14

Clarification of "Opposite Margin" in Rule 26-1c (ii)

Q. Please clarify the words "opposite margin" in Rule 26-1c . With regard to the diagram, "X1" indicates where a ball in the hazard last crossed the hazard margin. May the player drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y1"? And, may a player whose ball last crossed the hazard margin at "X2" drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y2," and so on?

A. With respect to "X1," "Y1" is "a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole." Accordingly, the player would be entitled to drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y1."

The same applies in the cases of "X3"-"Y3" and "X4"-"Y4," but not in the case of "X2"-"Y2." A "point on the opposite margin" is a point across the hazard from "the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the hazard." "Y2" is not across the hazard from "X2" because an imaginary straight line from "X2" to "Y2" crosses land outside the hazard.

[rogolf]

In the case of an island green or similar there is not going to be an opposite margin. To invoke this option there must be nothing but hazard between the two points.

We don't want people to think that if the ball crossed the margin at the back of the green 15 yards from the hole, he may drop at any point on the margin 15 yards from the hole, do we? ;)

26-1/14

Clarification of "Opposite Margin" in Rule 26-1c(ii)

Q.Please clarify the words "opposite margin" in Rule 26-1c. With regard to the diagram, "X1" indicates where a ball in the hazard last crossed the hazard margin. May the player drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y1"? And, may a player whose ball last crossed the hazard margin at "X2" drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y2," and so on?

A.With respect to "X1," "Y1" is "a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole." Accordingly, the player would be entitled to drop a ball within two club-lengths of "Y1."

The same applies in the cases of "X3"-"Y3" and "X4"-"Y4," but not in the case of "X2"-"Y2." A "point on the opposite margin" is a point across the hazard from "the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the hazard." "Y2" is not across the hazard from "X2" because an imaginary straight line from "X2" to "Y2" crosses land outside the hazard.

I don't think such a blanket statement is correct.  Depending on the location of the flagstick (hole) and where the ball last crossed the margin of the lateral water hazard, there may well be an opposite margin and equidistant point that can be used.