Scramble Cheaters

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

I don't have an issue with scoring low, it's the teams who return scores beyond 18 under that I really have a hard time buying.  Playing in 5 man teams once a year for 22 years and never seeing a score better than 15 under makes me suspicious of any 4 man team team not composed entirely of single digits and better, and I'll even look askance at that team.  It is extremely difficult to do the equivalent of birdieing every hole, and exceeding that is just going to confirm the average player's conviction that they could only do it by cheating.  If it's an unusually easy course, or if it plays short, then maybe, but a course that presents strong challenges is going to bite even a good team occasionally.

I generally agree with this, unless it's a charity type event that is allowing you to purchase mulligans and red tee offs and strings to get closer to the hole and a pro driving for you, etc. Those types of scrambles can easily get to 18 under. When on the par 5, you tee off from the red tees, hit wedge into the green and have a string to get close enough to tap in for eagle, you are almost guaranteed to shoot -18.

[Duff McGee]

I don't have an issue with scoring low, it's the teams who return scores beyond 18 under that I really have a hard time buying.  Playing in 5 man teams once a year for 22 years and never seeing a score better than 15 under makes me suspicious of any 4 man team team not composed entirely of single digits and better, and I'll even look askance at that team.  It is extremely difficult to do the equivalent of birdieing every hole, and exceeding that is just going to confirm the average player's conviction that they could only do it by cheating.  If it's an unusually easy course, or if it plays short, then maybe, but a course that presents strong challenges is going to bite even a good team occasionally.

Exactly.

[Dave2512]

With mulligans and string 18 under or more is pretty easy on a four man team. Someone will hit a decent drive, someone will hit a decent approach and the hole is a lot bigger and closer with string.

[Duff McGee]

I want to again make clear that these are complete hackers. As in if they have to hit over water for a par 3, no one is making the green and at least 2 people are hitting it in the water every time.

[Grumpter]

I don't have an issue with scoring low, it's the teams who return scores beyond 18 under that I really have a hard time buying.  Playing in 5 man teams once a year for 22 years and never seeing a score better than 15 under makes me suspicious of any 4 man team team not composed entirely of single digits and better, and I'll even look askance at that team.  It is extremely difficult to do the equivalent of birdieing every hole, and exceeding that is just going to confirm the average player's conviction that they could only do it by cheating.  If it's an unusually easy course, or if it plays short, then maybe, but a course that presents strong challenges is going to bite even a good team occasionally.

How often have you encountered teams scoring that low? I have only encountered -18 or less twice. One was a group of 4 'ringers' and the other group was put together by a former professional hockey player. The group that I actually saw (we played right behind them) put up a -16 had a good group of golfers. On a course with plenty of reachable or near reachable par 4's/5's -16 was within their reach. If I end up in a tournament where they have the string, mulligans from anywhere or such then I just don't play that tournament again. To me the straight up scramble format is enough.

All scrambles, courses and golfers are not created equal.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I don't have an issue with scoring low, it's the teams who return scores beyond 18 under that I really have a hard time buying.  Playing in 5 man teams once a year for 22 years and never seeing a score better than 15 under makes me suspicious of any 4 man team team not composed entirely of single digits and better, and I'll even look askance at that team.  It is extremely difficult to do the equivalent of birdieing every hole, and exceeding that is just going to confirm the average player's conviction that they could only do it by cheating.  If it's an unusually easy course, or if it plays short, then maybe, but a course that presents strong challenges is going to bite even a good team occasionally.

How often have you encountered teams scoring that low? I have only encountered -18 or less twice. One was a group of 4 'ringers' and the other group was put together by a former professional hockey player. The group that I actually saw (we played right behind them) put up a -16 had a good group of golfers. On a course with plenty of reachable or near reachable par 4's/5's -16 was within their reach. If I end up in a tournament where they have the string, mulligans from anywhere or such then I just don't play that tournament again. To me the straight up scramble format is enough.

All scrambles, courses and golfers are not created equal.

Like I said in my post that you quoted, I've never seen a score lower than -15 (those were computer matched teams by handicap, not self organized - cheating was not even a possibility).  Maybe I've been lucky but the few company and charity scrambles I've played didn't seem to have any ringers or cheaters in them.  Such scores were usually in the area of -10 or so.

I agree that when you start adding mulligans and string and such, you add an element that throws the odds way out of whack.  Most of the events I played did not have such options.  Aside from the obvious advantage of playing all shots from the location of the selected ball, we played actual golf, playing the ball all the way to the hole.

[Grumpter]

Maybe I've been lucky but the few company and charity scrambles I've played didn't seem to have any ringers or cheaters in them.

My opinion and experience is that is the norm. I have stopped playing the one scramble where the one guy put together the group of 'ringers' and I have yet to come away with the feeling that a group was cheating. Whenever I have talked to people who knew some of the players or witnessed the players playing I never got the sense that they were cheating. I did hear a lot of grumbles from people that wanted to believe they were cheating. In the scramble with the ringers I usually joined as a single player and had the tournament match me up with 3 players I did not know. On more than one occasion the other 3 players were surprised by how low we could shoot. Sometimes that was only -7 but other times that was into the teens. The downside is sometimes I would get a group that we would only end up at -4'ish but it is what it is.

[Elmer]

Since most scrambles are charity events, sometimes they sell muligans- this to me is asking people to cheat. I avoid scrambles period.

Those of you wanting to sell something more, sell the opportunity for one player, one chance on any hole they choose to tee it up one tee box closer ( maximum of 4 players each get one chance)

We sold them for 25 bucks per chance and it actually sped things up a bit. Many of the foursomes plunked down the $100 extra

cheat: to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something
How is this cheating??? Everyone that participates in the scramble has a opportunity to purchase a mulligan.
And yes I know Golf does not have mulligans and scrambles are technically cheating in the eyes of the "rules of golf"
however Scrambles have their own rules and if you play by the rules you are not cheating.
Cheating would be taking mulligans when they are not allowed.
I find it funny the amount of people who respond "I dont like scrambles so I dont play them". Yet feel compelled to give us their opinion on scrambles!

[grubby98]

Just played in a scramble this past weekend and everyone thought we were cheating cuz ppl thought we were scrambling a lot to make pars.  What they didn't know was that my Driver was unreal and we always had a good ball so I gambled a lot.  Short course 6300 yards.  We were on every par 5 in 2 and I nearly drove 2 par 4s.  The group in front of us stood up and told everyone we were yelling and screaming like craxy because of good putts and shots..One hole I almost hit one because I didn't think their was anyway possible I could clear a lake...I swung out of my shoes and caught it solid...Scrambles due have a lot of cheating...normally those that play 1 or 2 times a year, but when the scramble had 2 closest to pins and 2 long drives and I won all 4 they all understood our stupid low score.  Lately I have shot mid to high 60s on my own, with a couple stupid scores and then a few bad drives. So it wasn't to hard to shot the score we did.  We ended up winning by 5 stokes, 17 under 54.  The only team that thought we cheated I asked if they wanted to go play for money right now and they didn't because they now it takes one good golfer and then a few decent players and a hot putter or two and low scores are very possible.

[MyrtleBeachGolf]

Said some stuff about mulligans

I've played in charity scrambles where there was no limit on the number of mulligans you were allowed to buy and use. Obviously, it's for charity, so they are doing everything they can to raise as much money as possible. I don't usually try to compete in events like this. I just consider it a nice day out on the course for a good cause. The winners of charity scrambles are almost always cheaters. I don't see the point.

[Dave2512]

I've played in scrambles where $10 bought 2 mulligans and they gave us $4 drink tickets too redeemable with the bev cart or the club bar. We used mulligans for everything even missed putts. Scramble rules are whatever the tournament sponsor says they are it's not the Open. My gripe with scrambles is the time, arranging a designated driver and the hangover.

[No Mulligans]

I don't have an issue with scoring low, it's the teams who return scores beyond 18 under that I really have a hard time buying.  Playing in 5 man teams once a year for 22 years and never seeing a score better than 15 under makes me suspicious of any 4 man team team not composed entirely of single digits and better, and I'll even look askance at that team.  It is extremely difficult to do the equivalent of birdieing every hole, and exceeding that is just going to confirm the average player's conviction that they could only do it by cheating.  If it's an unusually easy course, or if it plays short, then maybe, but a course that presents strong challenges is going to bite even a good team occasionally.

Scrambles really close the gap between good and bad players.

If you have 4 players that each hit it well only 50% of the time, what is the odds that at least one will have a good shot on any given shot?   The odds are, 1 - (.5 x .5 x.5 x .5) = 93.75% of the time at least one of them will have a good shot.

A foursome of single digit players, it doesn't help them when all four hit a good shot, they can only use one of the shots.

Like I said, it really narrows the gap.  To a large degree it comes down to putting.

[No Mulligans]

I've played in scrambles where $10 bought 2 mulligans and they gave us $4 drink tickets too redeemable with the bev cart or the club bar. We used mulligans for everything even missed putts. Scramble rules are whatever the tournament sponsor says they are it's not the Open. My gripe with scrambles is the time, arranging a designated driver and the hangover.

Exactly, scrambles are about having a good time and giving some to charity.  They are not a legit competition.

[Pete F]

Sometimes the rules are a little tricky. I play in one every thursday night, 6 man teams, best ball. Sometimes you have to use one of everyones drives, or two putts (trick is only need one from off the green and it counts double!) Low team wins a couple of balls each and so does a drawn team. There is a closest to the hole and long drive bucket also. Not everyone buys in to those, I know one guy got his dollar and a few others back as shop credit.

We always have a good time, a couple of beers and once in a while win a couple of balls.

The best opportunity is right at the end closest to the hole on a par 3 for a buck.

[boil3rmak3r]

I can see why some people automatically think cheating had to have occurred if a team posts a stupid-low number. Prior to last year, all of my scramble experiences were pretty much as me being the "A" player. Scores generally ranged from E to -7. Last year, I played a scramble where two of our guys were near scratch, one was a -2 HI, and I was the duffer with a -7 HI. We shot 17 under - 1 eagle, 15 birdies, and 2 pars. No cheating took place... We had 18 GIR, including putting for eagle on both par 5's. We came in 2nd place... So, I KNOW it's possible for a team of ringers (plus crappy me) to do it. 10 under for a team of bogey golfers with no cheating? Yeah, i could see that...

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I don't have an issue with scoring low, it's the teams who return scores beyond 18 under that I really have a hard time buying.  Playing in 5 man teams once a year for 22 years and never seeing a score better than 15 under makes me suspicious of any 4 man team team not composed entirely of single digits and better, and I'll even look askance at that team.  It is extremely difficult to do the equivalent of birdieing every hole, and exceeding that is just going to confirm the average player's conviction that they could only do it by cheating.  If it's an unusually easy course, or if it plays short, then maybe, but a course that presents strong challenges is going to bite even a good team occasionally.

Scrambles really close the gap between good and bad players.

If you have 4 players that each hit it well only 50% of the time, what is the odds that at least one will have a good shot on any given shot?   The odds are, 1 - (.5 x .5 x.5 x .5) = 93.75% of the time at least one of them will have a good shot.

A foursome of single digit players, it doesn't help them when all four hit a good shot, they can only use one of the shots.

Like I said, it really narrows the gap.  To a large degree it comes down to putting.

But even good players have bad holes, and unless someone else picks up after them, they can easily have a bogey on the card.  Overcoming even one bogey is difficult with a lot of more or less evenly matched teams.  I've been on a team that made the turn at 9 under, then couldn't buy a putt on the back nine.  I've seen the opposite, struggle on the front then go low on the back, but too late to make it into contention.

To have a legitimate shot at winning a generic scramble, you have to make more birdies than pars, maybe throw in an eagle or 2, and hope that there isn't a team that holes out with the pencil more than they do with the ball.  And this is without even considering mulligans and string.

[Dave2512]

Yeah I don't know. Last summer my instructor had me a play a 3 ball best ball scramble homework assignment to prove a point. I didn't have any bad holes playing 3 balls on my own, both days yielded sub 70 scores.

[Pete F]

Yeah I don't know. Last summer my instructor had me a play a 3 ball best ball scramble homework assignment to prove a point. I didn't have any bad holes playing 3 balls on my own, both days yielded sub 70 scores.

So was this a one man best ball homework assignment? Sounds interesting...............did you see any evidence of cheating?