Incident on the green

[Golfingdad]

I agree.  My point is just that hitting when there's a 10e-6% chance that my shot could slowly roll up and settle resting against someone's shoe after I just outdid my best ever shot with that club by 5-10%, and there's a 0% chance that the ball could reach the group in front of me traveling faster than 1mph, I consider that playing it safe!

I'm on board with that.  What bothers me, though, is people that don't have patience.  If you're (general you, not you Matt) standing on the tee behind me and see me waiting on a par 5, allow me the courtesy of assuming I know what I'm doing and there is a chance I could hit it as far as I think I can.  Then also recognize while I'm waiting for that group AGAIN on the next tee or the next par 5 or whatever, that I didn't slow you or anybody behind you down.

As a high school kid, I've been involved in two separate incidences that help shape my (sort of strong, admittedly) feelings about this.  The first was when me and my friend were waiting in the fairway on a par 5 because we were leery of reaching the occupied green, I started actually getting heckled from some drunk douchebag on the tee behind me - yelling and hand waving and what not.  And me being an easily intimidated kid, I succumbed and topped my shot nowhere ... to the delight of the douchebag who was laughing afterwards.  Yes, I could hear him.

Shortly thereafter (It's 25-28 years ago, so shortly could be a week or it could be 18 months, and honestly, it could be before, I don't remember anymore) while playing THE EXACT SAME par 5 (Riverside GC in Fresno, 14th hole, for anybody interested) and reaching our balls in the fairway, my friend determines that there is no way that he can reach the green.  As you can guess, he hits the perfect shot, which bounds and rolls up onto the green while a group is putting.  The man sees the ball, picks it up, shows it to us, and then throws it onto the train tracks.  Then gets in his cart and drives back to us screaming about how we could have hurt his son.

I cannot stand these type of people who have no patience on either end of the slow play/fast play spectrum.

That is all.

[sjduffers]

... The man sees the ball, picks it up, shows it to us, and then throws it onto the train tracks.  Then gets in his cart and drives back to us screaming about how we could have hurt his son.

I cannot stand these type of people who have no patience on either end of the slow play/fast play spectrum.

That is all.

Why do you say that the man throwing the ball away is on the slow play side of things? He was on the green, putting, not necessarily being behind and in fact most people can't hit par 5s in 2 and would have had to hit another shot closer to the green and there would have been no issue at all.

In the case I have described where I was hit into on the 18th green and where I threw the ball behind the green after showing it to the offender, it was no accident: I was still on the green (albeit in the process of exiting), the ball landed over my head and to my side and that group never had to wait for the whole round, as my group was not slow. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown the ball, but the guy definitely should not have hit. So how do show this dimwit that what he did was dangerous and completely unacceptable (besides making him look for his ball and replace it and have words with him)?

[Golfingdad]

Why do you say that the man throwing the ball away is on the slow play side of things? He was on the green, putting, not necessarily being behind and in fact most people can't hit par 5s in 2 and would have had to hit another shot closer to the green and there would have been no issue at all. In the case I have described where I was hit into on the 18th green and where I threw the ball behind the green after showing it to the offender, it was no accident: I was still on the green (albeit in the process of exiting), the ball landed over my head and to my side and that group never had to wait for the whole round, as my group was not slow. Maybe I shouldn't have thrown the ball, but the guy definitely should not have hit. So how do show this dimwit that what he did was dangerous and completely unacceptable (besides making him look for his ball and replace it and have words with him)?

My wording was probably confusing but that's not even remotely what I was saying. I have no idea if he was slow or fast nor is that even relevant to the story ... All I know is he had no patience. (and he was unreasonable and childish)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mdl

So you're saying I shouldn't tee off if a group in front is at 330?  I do that every single time without question (assuming we're talking stock conditions, no big tailwind or downhill, etc).  And I've never even come close to rolling on up on a group at 330.  Not even close.  Ever.  And the "worst" that could have ever happened is that I carry one 60 yards behind them and roll it up to 10 yards behind them.  Disaster.

But look at it from the flip side ... what are you gaining by teeing off at that point?  One of two things is likely happening:

They are waiting for the green to clear to hit their approaches.  And they're 330 out because they are either long hitters or perhaps really short hitters who got there in 2.  Either way, there is a group on the green and they are in the fairway.

In scenario 1, you're gaining absolutely nothing by not waiting because all that is going to happen is you sit in the fairway longer waiting for the green to clear after both groups ahead of you have to get through it.  It's even possible that you're worsening the logjam at that point because the group behind you sees you tee off and they speed up to get to the tee.  Now there are 4 groups all sitting on the par 4 together?  Oy.

You tend to promote a poor mindset with this philosophy.  Just as an example:

We come to the tee on a par 5 hole.  The group ahead of is is waiting about 270 out from the tee because 2 of them are big hitters and have the length to reach the green.  Their compadres have already played their second shots.  We have three players of average length and one long hitter who has to wait.  The three of us who can do so go ahead and play.  It doesn't matter that our long hitter has to wait a little more now and that he will still have to wait on his second shot, because by clearing the tee promptly, we open the play for any shorter hitters behind us.  The 3 of us play our second shots while the group in front putts (even though two of us can get within 20 yards after the roll) so we are ready to move out immediately when our big knocker hits.  We again open the field for the guys behind us within a few seconds of the green clearing.  We play up, putt out and have to wait on the tee again.  That's okay (or at least more acceptable) because almost anyone would rather wait on the tee than in the fairway.  We have given both ourselves and the group behind us the best possible chance to play the previous hole without any major delays.

Now imagine that everyone plays this way.  Delays in the fairway and on the tee would be lessened, and the overall pace would have no choice but to improve.

With your plan, everybody still has to hit once the fairway clears, just slowing play still more.

[David in FL]

You tend to promote a poor mindset with this philosophy.  Just as an example: We come to the tee on a par 5 hole.  The group ahead of is is waiting about 270 out from the tee because 2 of them are big hitters and have the length to reach the green.  Their compadres have already played their second shots.  We have three players of average length and one long hitter who has to wait.  The three of us who can do so go ahead and play.  It doesn't matter that our long hitter has to wait a little more now and that he will still have to wait on his second shot, because by clearing the tee promptly, we open the play for any shorter hitters behind us.  The 3 of us play our second shots while the group in front putts (even though two of us can get within 20 yards after the roll) so we are ready to move out immediately when our big knocker hits.  We again open the field for the guys behind us within a few seconds of the green clearing.  We play up, putt out and have to wait on the tee again.  That's okay (or at least more acceptable) because almost anyone would rather wait on the tee than in the fairway.  We have given both ourselves and the group behind us the best possible chance to play the previous hole without any major delays.   Now imagine that everyone plays this way.  Delays in the fairway and on the tee would be lessened, and the overall pace would have no choice but to improve.   With your plan, everybody still has to hit once the fairway clears, just slowing play still more.

+1 It's so simple....

[Golfingdad]

You tend to promote a poor mindset with this philosophy.  Just as an example: We come to the tee on a par 5 hole.  The group ahead of is is waiting about 270 out from the tee because 2 of them are big hitters and have the length to reach the green.  Their compadres have already played their second shots.  We have three players of average length and one long hitter who has to wait.  The three of us who can do so go ahead and play.  It doesn't matter that our long hitter has to wait a little more now and that he will still have to wait on his second shot, because by clearing the tee promptly, we open the play for any shorter hitters behind us.  The 3 of us play our second shots while the group in front putts (even though two of us can get within 20 yards after the roll) so we are ready to move out immediately when our big knocker hits.  We again open the field for the guys behind us within a few seconds of the green clearing.  We play up, putt out and have to wait on the tee again.  That's okay (or at least more acceptable) because almost anyone would rather wait on the tee than in the fairway.  We have given both ourselves and the group behind us the best possible chance to play the previous hole without any major delays.   Now imagine that everyone plays this way.  Delays in the fairway and on the tee would be lessened, and the overall pace would have no choice but to improve.   With your plan, everybody still has to hit once the fairway clears, just slowing play still more.

I disagree because your example does not contradict my philosophy. When I play with my dad and father in law, for example, they always tee off before I do and they frequently are teeing off before I'm even able to. What they're not doing and what I'm not doing is teeing off when somebody is hittable. Even if it's a 1% chance. And we don't fall behind. It's so simple. ;)

[Elmer]

Perhaps a picture of the topography may help: my push cart is at the X: I am at the O on the green, heading towards X, walking in front of the large tree, and my partners are ahead to the cart at C on the cart loop.  The ball pitch mark is about even with the bunker's finger, 10 yards to me right (looking back towards the fairway, i.e. on the left side of the green).

@Fourputt read my admittedly somewhat confusing description correctly: I am a walker exiting the green and my partners are getting back into their riding cart. I may be walking towards the next group but i am paying more attention to where I am putting my feet rather than looking at 200 yds away for somebody who should wait another 15 seconds or so before they hit. Oh, and the sun is setting towards the upper left corner of that map, so I am not looking into it.

My reaction may be childish, but not asinine, and if you think that my life is worth less than some idiot having to look 5 seconds to retrieve his ball, I don't know what to think about you.  What is the hurry? Can't he wait just a little bit? And instead of saying or gesturing sorry, he starts with: "you picked up my ball. Why? I hit the best shot of my life with my 6 iron" (which is a lie) as the confrontation progresses, he now says it was a 5 wood.  He was about 200 yards out from what I could tell after looking up to see where this was coming from: and you tell me that he does not know that his 5 wood can go in the neighborhood of 200 yards, or even 150 yds?  And of course, he is the rare player who never slices, right? The distance between the O and the X is about 45 yds, btw.

@newtogolf, my cart is exactly in the right place for a quick exit, as I hope the map shows.

I find it amazing that folks here who just said that you should never hit voluntarily into someone are now defending this guy's action (which is exactly what he did) and vilifying me for moving his ball, or assuming that I am/was slow. I also said that the group behind never waited on us during the whole round, but they couldn't be bothered to wait for a few seconds due to that hole poor design.

Since I have outed myself as hitting within 10 yards of people on a hole at my home course, Driveable par 4, I will say you are wrong and not be hypocritical!

In my opinion you finished the hole it is someone else's fairway now. You never move backwards towards off a green and back into a fairway. You should have exited the green towards C, and walked down the cart path towards your bag. Not only that you should have left your cart on the other side of the cart path and taken your bag out of play.

What if the guys ball hit your bag because you left it just off the side of path. Now you are obstructing his game?

And throwing the ball. That is childish and silly.

And yes I walk,

Ten yards, slightly deeper in the green than I am standing (meaning over my head) and to my side, from 200 yds out or so? What is your definition of being hit into? Getting nailed between the eyes?

I can't believe you don't see anything wrong with this.  Let me be sure you are never in a group behind me, or I need to bring a kevlar jacket and a helmet, jeeze... (unless there is some sarcasm in your comment that I failed to detect).

Getting hit into, to me, is any shot that is 5 yards or less.
If the ball invades my personal space on the fly, I was hit into.

10 yards is being a bit uptight.

[krupa]

I don't understand the argument that says the push cart should go to C.  Regardless of where @sjduffers leaves his bag, he still has to walk past point X to get to the next hole.

The path O to X is the shortest path to get from the green to the next hole.    The path O to C to X is longer and is in range of errant approach shots the whole time (well except for the 2 seconds the tree is directly between him and the group behind him.)

A golfer may say, "I'm good enough that I won't push my shot to the right, so get the f*** out of my way"  But golfers, in general, are rarely so accurate.

[Elmer]

I don't understand the argument that says the push cart should go to C.  Regardless of where @sjduffers leaves his bag, he still has to walk past point X to get to the next hole.

The path O to X is the shortest path to get from the green to the next hole.    The path O to C to X is longer and is in range of errant approach shots the whole time (well except for the 2 seconds the tree is directly between him and the group behind him.)

A golfer may say, "I'm good enough that I won't push my shot to the right, so get the f*** out of my way"  But golfers, in general, are rarely so accurate.

I think if the golfer walks to X but does so on the C side of the tree (and behind the tree) the ball lands further away from him.

Not to mention the Golfer is no longer walking in the approach and backwards down the fairway!

Once again, in my opinion when you hole your put you need to clear the green and allow the next golfer to shoot at it.

not clearing the green and walkin through the approach means the next group has to wait for you to move. Which means the golfers behind them have to wait.

[Fourputt]

Since I have outed myself as hitting within 10 yards of people on a hole at my home course, Driveable par 4, I will say you are wrong and not be hypocritical!

In my opinion you finished the hole it is someone else's fairway now. You never move backwards towards off a green and back into a fairway. You should have exited the green towards C, and walked down the cart path towards your bag. Not only that you should have left your cart on the other side of the cart path and taken your bag out of play.

What if the guys ball hit your bag because you left it just off the side of path. Now you are obstructing his game?

And throwing the ball. That is childish and silly.

And yes I walk,

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjduffers

Ten yards, slightly deeper in the green than I am standing (meaning over my head) and to my side, from 200 yds out or so? What is your definition of being hit into? Getting nailed between the eyes?

I can't believe you don't see anything wrong with this.  Let me be sure you are never in a group behind me, or I need to bring a kevlar jacket and a helmet, jeeze... (unless there is some sarcasm in your comment that I failed to detect).

Getting hit into, to me, is any shot that is 5 yards or less.

If the ball invades my personal space on the fly, I was hit into.

10 yards is being a bit uptight.

Regardless of where he parks his trolley, he still has to walk back up the hole to get to the next tee.  It's no different from the hole diagram that I posted below his. Players following need to wait until he clears the area, and that means until he has passed out of sight up the cart path.  I get frustrated with I'm following someone so clueless that he parks his trolley on the front or on the wrong side of the green and I have to wait for him to get his stuff and clear out.  I still wait.  I don't hit into him just because it's my opinion that he shouldn't be there in the first place.

The OP's course has that issue designed into it.  In this situation, he had every right to be where he was, and those following had no right to hit before he cleared the area .

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjduffers

Ten yards, slightly deeper in the green than I am standing (meaning over my head) and to my side, from 200 yds out or so? What is your definition of being hit into? Getting nailed between the eyes?

I can't believe you don't see anything wrong with this.  Let me be sure you are never in a group behind me, or I need to bring a kevlar jacket and a helmet, jeeze... (unless there is some sarcasm in your comment that I failed to detect).

Getting hit into, to me, is any shot that is 5 yards or less.

If the ball invades my personal space on the fly, I was hit into.

10 yards is being a bit uptight.

IDK about you but my 200 yards club carries anywhere from 180 to 220 with almost equal probability.

[rkim291968]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmer

Quote:

Originally Posted by sjduffers

Ten yards, slightly deeper in the green than I am standing (meaning over my head) and to my side, from 200 yds out or so? What is your definition of being hit into? Getting nailed between the eyes?

I can't believe you don't see anything wrong with this.  Let me be sure you are never in a group behind me, or I need to bring a kevlar jacket and a helmet, jeeze... (unless there is some sarcasm in your comment that I failed to detect).

Getting hit into, to me, is any shot that is 5 yards or less.

If the ball invades my personal space on the fly, I was hit into.

10 yards is being a bit uptight.

IDK about you but my 200 yards club carries anywhere from 180 to 220 with almost equal probability.

10 yards is more than a margin of error for most amateur golfers if not all.   10 yards is a "give him a look" event.   Next time he does it is a "shout at him for caution" event.  If he does it the 3rd time, I am either calling a marshal or confronting him.   But almost all golfers do not go past the 2nd event.   They know they were cutting it too close.

BTW, my golf playing partner is my wife.   She gets startled by a golf ball sound falling nearby - anywhere within 20 yards.   She also has a softer head than mine and I need to protect it at all cost b/c training another wife to play golf with me will take a life time. I.e, I will error on the safe side and call out the group behind if his ball lands close to us.

[krupa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by krupa

I don't understand the argument that says the push cart should go to C.  Regardless of where @sjduffers leaves his bag, he still has to walk past point X to get to the next hole.

The path O to X is the shortest path to get from the green to the next hole.    The path O to C to X is longer and is in range of errant approach shots the whole time (well except for the 2 seconds the tree is directly between him and the group behind him.)

A golfer may say, "I'm good enough that I won't push my shot to the right, so get the f*** out of my way"  But golfers, in general, are rarely so accurate.

I think if the golfer walks to X but does so on the C side of the tree (and behind the tree) the ball lands further away from him.

Not to mention the Golfer is no longer walking in the approach and backwards down the fairway!

Once again, in my opinion when you hole your put you need to clear the green and allow the next golfer to shoot at it.

not clearing the green and walkin through the approach means the next group has to wait for you to move. Which means the golfers behind them have to wait.

But just because he's not on the green doesn't mean he's not out of the way.   He still has to walk down the path to point X before taking the fork over to the next hole.

According to golfsmith, the average golfer shoots about 100  (http://golftips.golfsmith.com/average-golf-score-1916.html)  Assuming this is true, I'm a little below average (105 is my best score ever) and if I'm within 150 yards of the green, I would never dare take a shot if a golfer was walking along that path from C to X.   Just last night I hit a 7 iron to the right of the green.

[sjduffers]

In my opinion you finished the hole it is someone else's fairway now. You never move backwards towards off a green and back into a fairway. You should have exited the green towards C, and walked down the cart path towards your bag. Not only that you should have left your cart on the other side of the cart path and taken your bag out of play.

What if the guys ball hit your bag because you left it just off the side of path. Now you are obstructing his game?

Getting hit into, to me, is any shot that is 5 yards or less.

If the ball invades my personal space on the fly, I was hit into.

10 yards is being a bit uptight.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.  If my bag is in the way, as you claim it to be, then so am I (or a riding cart) when I am walking down the cart path, only now it's taking longer because it is not the shortest route.  In fact, I have hit a few balls towards that direction, lost a few in the tall grass on the hill on the other side of the cart path and the Men's club at that place has a local rule that gives a free drop in the flower bed (more like dead brush now) in the middle of the cart loop.  The hole is designed that way, and the only exit (and back to the club house) is that cart path.  The area behind the green and to the right side is a steep hill and the road you see on the map is going to a restaurant on top of the cliff and his probably 20-30 feet above the green.

As for being uptight for being hit into, not so much when you are still on the green , and the ball lands less than 5 yards to my side and 5 yards over my head (for a total distance from me of maybe 10 yards).  I repeat until you can comprehend this: I am on the green and a ball comes flying over my head (and a bit to my side).  If that's not being hit into, I don't know what is.

I don't understand the argument that says the push cart should go to C.  Regardless of where @sjduffers leaves his bag, he still has to walk past point X to get to the next hole.

The path O to X is the shortest path to get from the green to the next hole.    The path O to C to X is longer and is in range of errant approach shots the whole time (well except for the 2 seconds the tree is directly between him and the group behind him.)

A golfer may say, "I'm good enough that I won't push my shot to the right, so get the f*** out of my way"  But golfers, in general, are rarely so accurate.

Exactly. Even better players miss once in a while (show me a guy who has never sliced and I'll show you a liar), and that guy and his buddy admitted they were actually relatively new players and certainly had the potential to spray the whole cart path as well as the green and the hill behind it, and the bunker and everything within a 40-50 yards radius.  Heck, I have done it myself, and all that from 200 yds where there is obviously much less control.

Once again, in my opinion when you hole your put you need to clear the green and allow the next golfer to shoot at it.

not clearing the green and walkin through the approach means the next group has to wait for you to move. Which means the golfers behind them have to wait.

Yes. That's unfortunate, but that's the design of the hole. There is no other way that the hole could have been designed, and it's also the last hole, so things that normal people do like taking your hat off and shaking a few hands happen there and take a few second.  Unless you are in a slow group with clear space ahead, it is normal and expected to have to wait a little bit on this hole: enjoy the view, the deers in the grove of trees on the right (not too far from the X spot by the way) and seize the moment: it's your last f**ing hole!

[sjduffers]

10 yards is more than a margin of error for most amateur golfers if not all.   10 yards is a "give him a look" event.

10 yards, from 200 yards out? Even the PGA Tour pros don't have that kind of control. This PGA Tour stats page shows that the best players in that category average just under 30 feet (or 10 yards) between 175 and 200 yards. The player ranked #190 this week in accuracy between 175 and 200 yds, from the fairway is Sergio Garcia at 39 ft. And you think that any of us is better than that? Dream on...

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkim291968

10 yards is more than a margin of error for most amateur golfers if not all.   10 yards is a "give him a look" event.

10 yards, from 200 yards out? Even the PGA Tour pros don't have that kind of control.  This PGA Tour stats page shows that the best players in that category average just under 30 feet (or 10 yards) between 175 and 200 yards. The player ranked #190 this week in accuracy between 175 and 200 yds, from the fairway is Sergio Garcia at 39 ft.  And you think that any of us is better than that? Dream on...

Sure, I think he meant what you mean, that's it's too tight. This is based upon his other posts where he was against hitting the ball unless it was obviously clear. . .

[sjduffers]

Sure, I think he meant what you mean, that's it's too tight. This is based upon his other posts where he was against hitting the ball unless it was obviously clear. . .

Perhaps, but he said the exact opposite: He said that 10 yards is more than the margin of error, meaning that the margin of error of (nearly) all amateurs golfers is less than 10 yards, so 10 yards is safe and is a "give him a look" event.  No, 10 yards is well within the margin of error of even the best professionals from 200 yards.  From 175-200 yds, those guys are using anything from an 8 to a 5 iron (and still miss by 10 yds)  This guy hit a 5 wood: his margin of error with it is probably 50 yards, not less than 10.   I was in full view on the green and therefore I was hit into.  Simple.

I already said I shouldn't have thrown his ball, but the guy never apologized and never saw anything wrong with what he did (and neither does @Elmer apparently).  I find that shocking, much more so than having to recover a ball in plain view a few yards away... Chastise me all for that, that's ok, I'll survive.  I might not have survived the hit to the head if the shot had been a little bit shorter hit and a little bit to the player's right. So, let's keep things in perspective, shall we?

[Lihu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lihu

Sure, I think he meant what you mean, that's it's too tight. This is based upon his other posts where he was against hitting the ball unless it was obviously clear. . .

Perhaps, but he said the exact opposite: He said that 10 yards is more than the margin of error, meaning that the margin of error of (nearly) all amateurs golfers is less than 10 yards, so 10 yards is safe and is a "give him a look" event.  No, 10 yards is well within the margin of error of even the best professionals from 200 yards.  From 175-200 yds, those guys are using anything from an 8 to a 5 iron (and still miss by 10 yds)  This guy hit a 5 wood: his margin of error with it is probably 50 yards, not less than 10.   I was in full view on the green and therefore I was hit into.  Simple.

I already said I shouldn't have thrown his ball, but the guy never apologized and never saw anything wrong with what he did (and neither does @Elmer apparently).  I find that shocking, much more so than having to recover a ball in plain view a few yards away... Chastise me all for that, that's ok, I'll survive.  I might not have survived the hit to the head if the shot had been a little bit shorter hit and a little bit to the player's right. So, let's keep things in perspective, shall we?

Elmer's response was kind of strange based upon previous posts about following rules etc. IDK for sure, but I'm sure Rkim meant not to hit.

That was pretty stupid for someone to hit a ball 200 yards out. I might hit a 5i in the hopes if could roll a long ways, but never would I hit a 3H or 3W from that distance.