True lofts

[craps]

Is it possible to play every club to their true lofts? In addition, how to set clubs to get true lofts?

[SavvySwede]

Not sure what you mean by "true lofts". If you mean something like loft=launch angle with each club I would say no and it would be far from ideal. If you mean something else you'll have to clarify. 

[WUTiger]

I'm with SS. Could you tell us what you mean by true loft?

[craps]

If you hit a 25 degree club, at impact, the ideal club face should be 25 degree if there is no divot. If you compress the ball and take a divot, the club face is delofted. Is that true? Since our hands grew out from side of body, therefore to place the hand on the shaft across the body to the place inline with the stenum, the clubface will be delofted UNLESS you grip the club in a way that the shaft extend directly upwards from the clubface to the stenum

[Pretzel]

If you hit a 25 degree club, at impact, the ideal club face should be 25 degree if there is no divot. If you compress the ball and take a divot, the club face is delofted. Is that true? Since our hands grew out from side of body, therefore to place the hand on the shaft across the body to the place inline with the stenum, the clubface will be delofted UNLESS you grip the club in a way that the shaft extend directly upwards from the clubface to the stenum

What is the benefit of having an effective loft that is equal to the measured loft of the club?

[craps]

What is the benefit of having an effective loft that is equal to the measured loft of the club?

For the ease of setting up the club consistently.

On another post I asked about whether there is such an apparatus for club fitting purposes that have a joystick-like hosel.

Lets say you want to be fitted to a 25 degree loft iron.Place the leading edge of clubhead square to target line. Adjust shaft to point to your left hip (RH golfer) for the correct pitch WITHOUT delofting the club. Wouldn't this be a TAILORED MADE fit for more consistency? Pros have their clubs bent for the same purpose. IN short you play your clubs and NOT let your clubs play you.

 

[boogielicious]

@craps

I edited your post. Make sure you don't respond to a quote typing inside the quote.

On the topic, there is a lot more to club dynamics than just the head. The shaft bends in more than one dimension. If the shaft were perfectly stiff and never bent, then maybe your idea could work.

But you also have to add that the max velocity of the club head is before the arc of the swing bottoms out. So it is best to hit the ball at the max velocity point. To insure you make better contact, you hit a bit down on the ball, which will create a divot after impact but give you max ball speed.

If sweep swinging was ideal, the best players would have figured it out long ago.

Edited October 26, 2015 by boogielicious

[craps]

Thanks Boo for the post correction.  I am not suggesting an idea. I am just saying if clubs were to have an option for customers to be fitted this way, I will be the first to do it. Even it will not benefit me in performance, it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft. How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole 

I get  a better picture now why people have preference over a specific brand of clubs because some of them have more pitch in the hosel.

As a layman, I thought golf clubs are instruments of precision, played by imperfect Humans therefore it should be tailored made for each individual.  

The question here is whether having your clubs fitted this way will benefit the golfer in anyway. 

More thoughts ?

[saevel25]

it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft. How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole 

Why would you even care if the club is delofting. That's just a natural part of the swing. I have not once every cared about why my clubs are delofted at impact. 

First, lofts are measured with the club placed so the shaft has no lean on it. Due to ball position and it's relative location to your lead shoulder shaft lean is applied naturally. I would say somewhere around 10-20 degrees depending on the club. 

Then you add in things like shaft bend and hitting down on the ball and the launch angle is lowered even more. 

If you wanted to create clubs with the loft of the club being the loft at impact you would need a golf shaft that does not bend. You would need to hit the ball with a zero attack angle, with a club that bottoms out at the ball. 

Another reason I wouldn't do this is because you would be hitting with the club bottoming out at the ball. This means you need to be extra precise because if you don't hit that point or forward each time then you will hit a fat shot. I rather have the club bottom out before the ball because it makes sure you are hitting the ball first all the time. 


 

[craps]

Why would you even care if the club is delofting. That's just a natural part of the swing. I have not once every cared about why my clubs are delofted at impact. 
First, lofts are measured with the club placed so the shaft has no lean on it. Due to ball position and it's relative location to your lead shoulder shaft lean is applied naturally. I would say somewhere around 10-20 degrees depending on the club. 

Then you add in things like shaft bend and hitting down on the ball and the launch angle is lowered even more. 

If you wanted to create clubs with the loft of the club being the loft at impact you would need a golf shaft that does not bend. You would need to hit the ball with a zero attack angle, with a club that bottoms out at the ball. 

Another reason I wouldn't do this is because you would be hitting with the club bottoming out at the ball. This means you need to be extra precise because if you don't hit that point or forward each time then you will hit a fat shot. I rather have the club bottom out before the ball because it makes sure you are hitting the ball first all the time. 


 

Thanks Boo for the post correction.  I am not suggesting an idea. I am just saying if clubs were to have an option for customers to be fitted this way, I will be the first to do it. Even it will not benefit me in performance, it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft. How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole 

I get  a better picture now why people have preference over a specific brand of clubs because some of them have more pitch in the hosel.

As a layman, I thought golf clubs are instruments of precision, played by imperfect Humans therefore it should be tailored made for each individual.  

The question here is whether having your clubs fitted this way will benefit the golfer in anyway. 

More thoughts ?

 

So could you you please explain why USGA banned crooked sticks? Why is there club bending service in custom golf?  Everybody looks fine in T shirts but if T shirts can be custom sized, don't you think it will look even nicer?

[saevel25]

The question here is whether having your clubs fitted this way will benefit the golfer in anyway. 

I would say no because it doesn't promote hitting the ball first. To have the clubs set up such that you need to not hit down on the ball is not good. In the end you want to deloft the club because it gives you leeway in the swing for slight mishits. 

Lets say you bottom of on average +/- 0.5 inches. If you move that range so you need to bottom out at the ball then half the time you will be hitting the ball fat. If you move that low point 3 inches forward of the ball then 100% of the time you will the ball first. 
 

So could you you please explain why USGA banned crooked sticks? Why is there club bending service in custom golf?  

A quote from the USGA guidelines on golf shafts,

The shaft must be straight from the top of the grip to a point not more than 5 inches (127 mm) above the sole, measured from the point where the shaft ceases to be straight along the axis of the bent part of the shaft and/or socket.

Because people need to fine tune lie angle and lofts. 

[iacas]

If you hit a 25 degree club, at impact, the ideal club face should be 25 degree if there is no divot. If you compress the ball and take a divot, the club face is delofted. Is that true? Since our hands grew out from side of body, therefore to place the hand on the shaft across the body to the place inline with the stenum, the clubface will be delofted UNLESS you grip the club in a way that the shaft extend directly upwards from the clubface to the stenum

Nothing about that is "ideal" unless you have a different definition than most everyone else in golf.

You can have the shaft pointing just about any direction and still take a divot (or fail to take a divot and top the ball), too. Generally speaking a forward leaning shaft is still swinging down, but it doesn't have to be.

I am not suggesting an idea. I am just saying if clubs were to have an option for customers to be fitted this way, I will be the first to do it. Even it will not benefit me in performance, it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft.

Why would "augmenting or diminishing the loft" matter?

How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole 

They… have those kinds of clubs. Or you can just use the bottom groove. A perfectly square leading edge and sole would be clunky and would catch differently than the slight rounding we see on relatively "square" clubs these days.

As a layman, I thought golf clubs are instruments of precision, played by imperfect Humans therefore it should be tailored made for each individual.  

The question here is whether having your clubs fitted this way will benefit the golfer in anyway. 

I do not see how. 

[craps]

A lot of times you will find good golfers gripping and regripping the club. There must be an uneven feeling in the grip. Maybe some parts of the grip is felt more towards a certain part of the hand or fingers. Part of the reason has something to do with the lean of the shaft.  Sure one can do a forward hand  position, but that  will promote a steeper swing than  the desired one. I for one would like to grip the club in my fingers. I mean I want to feel more shaft. The heel pad of my left hand is more to the side than on top. I do grip the club securely with my left pinky. With this grip, the club face is always closed and I hate that I finally went to a golf shop to bend the hosel so that the club face is square when I use this grip. I don't have to rotate my hands clicwise to get face squared. I don't have to push my left hand out in my stance to get a square club face. I hit more consistent shots this way. I don't know what it is but I find the standard club shaft lean does not go well with my grip. If  I adjust the lean in my setup by cocking and delofting the club, my swing would be too steep and lose a lot of distance. I ask a clubfitter and he says whatever works for you. One man's medicine is another man's poison.

[Pretzel]

A lot of times you will find good golfers gripping and regripping the club. There must be an uneven feeling in the grip. 

False. A lot of players do it as a nervous tick or as part of their routine. It has nothing to do with the grip or how even it is.

I find the standard club shaft lean does not go well with my grip. If  I adjust the lean in my setup by cocking and delofting the club, my swing would be too steep and lose a lot of distance. I ask a clubfitter and he says whatever works for you. One man's medicine is another man's poison.

Then your grip is likely hindering you more than anything else if this is the case. As you describe it, "cocking and delofting the club" is the process of generating lag in your swing. This contributes to clubhead speed when you whip the club back into line with your lead arm, which is something you're leaving on the table by not allowing your wrists to bend and "deloft the club" as you say. 

I would recommend you check out THIS thread on how to properly grip a golf club, as well as post a "My Swing" thread to take advantage of the wealth of knowledge this site has to offer.

[saevel25]

A lot of times you will find good golfers gripping and regripping the club. There must be an uneven feeling in the grip. 

In the actual grip, depends on the grip. PURE Grips are injected molded so they don't get seems and are generally more uniform than other grips. 

 Sure one can do a forward hand  position, but that  will promote a steeper swing than  the desired one. 

No generally. PGA Tour players tend to swing shallower than amateurs and they set up with their hands infront of the ball. I wouldn't say it generally promotes a steeper angle. Steeper attack angles have more to do with how the body works. Over the top swings are generally steeper. Also, when the hips stall you don't get any extension and that can cause steeper attack angles. 

With this grip, the club face is always closed and I hate that I finally went to a golf shop to bend the hosel so that the club face is square when I use this grip.

Why not take the same grip but turn the shaft so it makes the club square or open? In the end it might be a fault in your swing or your grip. It might be you just need to get use to having the club oriented differently with your grip. 

I don't have to rotate my hands clicwise to get face squared. I don't have to push my left hand out in my stance to get a square club face. 

Neither do I and I don't have the issues you do with the clubface being closed. Sounds to me it's more of a problem with your grip. 99% of the time it's the golfer over the clubs. 

I would check out the link @Pretzel posted. It's a great thread on how to grip the club. 

[mvmac]

it will certainly help me line up to the target knowing that I did not augment or diminish the loft. How I wish I could find a set of clubs with a straight leading edge and squared sole 

Not trying to be rude but I think you need to do a better job at prioritizing. 

Give a ladies club to Jordan Spieth and he'll hit it solid.

[craps]

Thanks for all the input that you guys provide. I was not stating clearly what I want to know. I think I am clearer now. I simply want to know why  clubs  are not built with a forward lean so that the golfer can hit down or compress the  ball easier . I know I can forward lean the club myself but I feel a customized individual forward lean will ensure a better control especially after impact. It too only require a more normal grip.

Surprisingly there are  training clubs with forward lean but there are not comformig due to a curved shaft.

[Pretzel]

Thanks for all the input that you guys provide. I was not stating clearly what I want to know. I think I am clearer now. I simply want to know why  clubs  are not built with a forward lean so that the golfer can hit down or compress the  ball easier . I know I can forward lean the club myself but I feel a customized individual forward lean will ensure a better control especially after impact. It too only require a more normal grip.

Surprisingly there are  training clubs with forward lean but there are not comformig due to a curved shaft.

The reason is that a curved shaft will not be consistent. Depending on if you have the face slightly open or closed, it will bend and flex differently to produce different performance from swing to swing. Straight shafts are more consistent in the way they behave and a good golf swing does not need a bent shaft as you describe to produce optimal results. 

It's the Indian, not the arrow, 99% of the time or more. 

Edited October 27, 2015 by Pretzel