Paris Terror Attacks

[Mr. Desmond]

New Wave of Attempted Attacks in Paris apparently thwarted this morning.

Early morning raid and woman blows herself up... in progress. Suspects in custody.

[boogielicious]

13 hours ago, rkim291968 said:

In response to the article @Golfingdad posted above:

 

Boston bomber, and many EU terrorists were children of refugees, and/or their next generations.    It's the next generations (albeit a tiny fraction) who would get disillusioned by EU & American econo/socio system and would turn to ISIS.   This is already happening with a Muslim population in EU & US.   A large number of those kids have gone to fight for ISIS and some have came back already.  

However, I understand there are others who get converted to extreme Islam and join ISIS from EU & US.  But there isn't much we can do about that.   The issue at hand is, knowing that Syrian/Iraqi refugees comes with future issues, do we accept them?   I say no.   I'd rather accept Catholic Mexicans as refugees (from poverty) than Muslim Syrians whose children some day will pose threat to our way of life.  Unfortunately, Islam is a religion that can be interpreted to create ISIS, Al Qaeda, etc..    Less is better in this case.

Timothy McVeigh was a Bronze Star decorated US Army veteran from the first Gulf war and a Christian. He killed more people in OK City than ISIS did in Paris. Do we suspect every veteran now? Or just the ones that are White Power associated? Should I suspect homeless veterans?

The refugees are fleeing the same people that did this. Not helping them is very un-Christian in my opinion.  

[saevel25]

26 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

The refugees are fleeing the same people that did this. Not helping them is very un-Christian in my opinion.  

Yet, there is ISIS who is moving with these crowds so they can infiltrate other countries more easily. In a situation like this the first order of business for any elected official is the safety of the United States. These officials have sworn oaths to our country, not the Syrian people.

Also, do we even have the means or set up available to accept these refugees, or are we going to stick them somewhere and forget about them. I liked Kasicks response on this one, "Until we get a handle on where we are we need to stop. Unless we've got a rational program that we can determine who it is that's coming then it's another story. But for this point and time it's reasonable to stop," 

 

[boogielicious]

32 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Yet, there is ISIS who is moving with these crowds so they can infiltrate other countries more easily. In a situation like this the first order of business for any elected official is the safety of the United States. These officials have sworn oaths to our country, not the Syrian people.

Also, do we even have the means or set up available to accept these refugees, or are we going to stick them somewhere and forget about them. I liked Kasicks response on this one, "Until we get a handle on where we are we need to stop. Unless we've got a rational program that we can determine who it is that's coming then it's another story. But for this point and time it's reasonable to stop," 

 

Elected officials are only out for themselves. That is why the rhetoric rises. They are only trying to get elected. I don't think Kasicks, or Ted Cruz or whoever gives two shits about protecting me and my family. 

We have a vetting process. We can quickly increase the level of scrutiny. Meanwhile innocent people who are fleeing from violence are dying. Dangers come in every direction and not just refugees. 

[saevel25]

8 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

We have a vetting process. We can quickly increase the level of scrutiny. Meanwhile innocent people who are fleeing from violence are dying. Dangers come in every direction and not just refugees. 

Like the vetting process would work? As you say the politicians are out for themselves. Yet you trust the vetting process created by these politicians who just want to streamline the entry of refugees so they can tug on the heart strings of those who care to garner votes? 

I rather error on the side of American safety. 

[boogielicious]

6 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Like the vetting process would work? As you say the politicians are out for themselves. Yet you trust the vetting process created by these politicians who just want to streamline the entry of refugees so they can tug on the heart strings of those who care to garner votes? 

I rather error on the side of American safety. 

So close the borders forever I guess? It is the same vetting process we use for legal immigration. It is the same process that let Ted Cruz's Cuban refugee dad into the country from Canada and Bobby Jindal's parents from India. We can't close ourselves to the world. Or else what we stand for and our Constitution means nothing. And we should take down Emma Lazarus' poem from the Statue of Liberty too then.

Quote

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

 

[saevel25]

14 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

So close the borders forever I guess? It is the same vetting process we use for legal immigration. It is the same process that let Ted Cruz's Cuban refugee dad into the country from Canada and Bobby Jindal's parents from India. We can't close ourselves to the world. Or else what we stand for and our Constitution means nothing. And we should take down Emma Lazarus' poem from the Statue of Liberty too then.

Was there terrorist coming in with Ted Cruz's dad? Was their terrorist coming in with Bobby Jindal's parents? 

[RussUK]

18 hours ago, turtleback said:

But, but, but, just a few ours before he said ISIS was contained.

 

Remind me again, were Christians dancing in the streets after WACO?

 

I wish the Germans had ignored him and fought the monster THEY were faced with back in the 30s.  Just because a philosopher says something does not make it wisdom.  All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.

 

You DO know that it is now the 21st century, right?

Why is it that if someone says "American patriot" no one thinks that is claiming that each and every American is a patriot, but every time someone says "Muslim terrorist" they are attacked for calling all Muslims terrorist?

The vast majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

The vast majority of terrorists (now, not in 1191) are Muslims.

The second fact is not negated by the first, no matter how much the left wished it was.  And there is no real question that it is specifically their (version of) the Muslim faith that is the motivating factor, IOW we have true causality here, not mere correlation.

What I do not believe is a fact is the statement made by someone that the vast majority of Muslims despise ISIS.  I've seen no evidence to support this whatsoever.  And lots to the contrary, as their attacks are applauded.  And the poll in France where 42% of Islamic youth always approve of suicide bombing, the 1.5 million Muslims in England who say they support ISIS, etc.

 

 The point of the post stating historical events was to show that Christianity has done things just as horrific.

Want me to stick to the 21st Century, no problem.Here in the UK we have the knuckle draggers that call themselves the EDL (English Defense League) who belive England is for the English. Yes, i know they are not terrorists (idiots maybe) but i have had the misfortune to be caught in the middle of an Islamic rally and EDL rally and i dont recomend it. In my country it is people like this who are adding more fuel to the fire.

 Ive seen the poll as well re the 1.5 miilion muslims in the UK. This was conducted by the Daily Mirror, a tabloid paper well known for their scaremongering, HOWEVER, i do agree that the numbers supprting ISIS has risen. Most of these are the younger generation who are being radicalised one way or another. Is there a way to stop this? i dont know.

I still believe the "war" against terror is one that is pretty much unwinable and unlike a traditional conflict there can/will be no surrender from either side, no quater given and non asked. I dont like the world my kids are coming into

 

 

 

 

[boogielicious]

Just now, saevel25 said:

Was there terrorist coming in with Ted Cruz's dad? Was their terrorist coming in with Bobby Jindal's parents? 

Ted Cruz's dad.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/27/ted-cruz-memoir-father-cuba-revolutionary-fidel-castro

Quote

Texas Republican Senator Ted Cruz’s father was a 1950s Cuban revolutionary who longed to slip into the island’s eastern mountains and join Fidel Castro’s guerrilla army.

At 17, Rafael Cruz led a group of insurgents staging urban sabotage against the Cuban dictator Fulgencio Batista. Cruz was eventually jailed and tortured, and upon his release wanted the underground to help him personally reach Castro’s camp in the Sierra Maestra highlands.

“My dad asked if he could join Castro in the mountains and keep fighting,” the firebrand Republican presidential candidate writes in his book, A Time For Truth, which will be released on Tuesday. “But he was told there was no way to get to the rebels.”

Instead, the elder Cruz bribed his way to a Cuban exit visa and headed to the University of Texas.

He returned home shortly after Castro seized power in 1959 but, Ted Cruz writes, was appalled to see Castro had “declared to the world that he was a communist”. Castro did not formally call his revolution socialist until the eve of the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961.

The Cruzes have long admitted that Rafael was an early Castro sympathizer. But Ted Cruz’s memoir – a copy of which the Associated Press purchased – provides new details about his desire personally to fight alongside the guerrilla leader.

 

[Lihu]

15 minutes ago, RussUK said:

 The point of the post stating historical events was to show that Christianity has done things just as horrific.

Want me to stick to the 21st Century, no problem.Here in the UK we have the knuckle draggers that call themselves the EDL (English Defense League) who belive England is for the English. Yes, i know they are not terrorists (idiots maybe) but i have had the misfortune to be caught in the middle of an Islamic rally and EDL rally and i dont recomend it. In my country it is people like this who are adding more fuel to the fire.

 Ive seen the poll as well re the 1.5 miilion muslims in the UK. This was conducted by the Daily Mirror, a tabloid paper well known for their scaremongering, HOWEVER, i do agree that the numbers supprting ISIS has risen. Most of these are the younger generation who are being radicalised one way or another. Is there a way to stop this? i dont know.

I still believe the "war" against terror is one that is pretty much unwinable and unlike a traditional conflict there can/will be no surrender from either side, no quater given and non asked. I dont like the world my kids are coming into

 

 

 

 

 

Evil exists everywhere, you can either ignore them and go on with your lives and use that hateful energy to go on and do great things, or get offended by them and do worse things like joining ISIS.

It's personal choice, we all have free will to do good or bad.

[nevets88]

POV experiences of the attacks from French golfers:

http://golfweek.com/news/2015/nov/16/paris-terrorist-attacks-france-golfer-reaction/

 

[rkim291968]

2 hours ago, boogielicious said:

Timothy McVeigh was a Bronze Star decorated US Army veteran from the first Gulf war and a Christian. He killed more people in OK City than ISIS did in Paris. Do we suspect every veteran now? Or just the ones that are White Power associated? Should I suspect homeless veterans?

The refugees are fleeing the same people that did this. Not helping them is very un-Christian in my opinion.  

We are gonna have our share of Tim McVeighs.   But look at the France attackers.  They are all children of Muslim immigrants.  The more Syrian/Iraqui refugees we accept, we will have higher chance of these attacks happening in US. 

And ... I am not a Christian.  I can be un-Christian like.

[saevel25]

47 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Ted Cruz's dad.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/27/ted-cruz-memoir-father-cuba-revolutionary-fidel-castro

Still not a terrorist. By the sounds of things, even though Cruz's dad fought as a revolutionary in Cuba he was shocked that Castro was aligned as a communist. It is known that Castro kept that allegiance secret from his political allies in Cuba for fear of losing their support. 

At the time when Cruz's dad came to the USA there was no embargo on Cuba. Really, no issue with him coming to the USA. 

 

[boogielicious]

17 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

Still not a terrorist. By the sounds of things, even though Cruz's dad fought as a revolutionary in Cuba he was shocked that Castro was aligned as a communist. It is known that Castro kept that allegiance secret from his political allies in Cuba for fear of losing their support. 

At the time when Cruz's dad came to the USA there was no embargo on Cuba. Really, no issue with him coming to the USA. 

 

Not sure I agree. Xenophobia works many ways. I'm not sure Ted Cruz would want a Castro loving commie to enter the US. That is how the rhetoric works.

[dkolo]

There's a lot of misinformation and fearmongering with respect to the refugee programs. This article offers some insight into what the actual process is for a refugee into the U.S. and how stringent it is compared with other nations. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34848248

[saevel25]

19 minutes ago, boogielicious said:

Not sure I agree. Xenophobia works many ways. I'm not sure Ted Cruz would want a Castro loving commie to enter the US. That is how the rhetoric works.

Did you actually read what I said and what Cruz said, 

"He returned home shortly after Castro seized power in 1959 but, Ted Cruz writes, was appalled to see Castro had “declared to the world that he was a communist”. Castro did not formally call his revolution socialist until the eve of the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961.

By sounds of things Cruz's dad was not a communist but a man who thought he was fighting for something that wasn't what he thought he was fighting for. If he was a communist then he would be celebrating Castro when he returned, not appalled by him. 

 

[Mr. Desmond]

May I interject?

I will not equate Ted Cruz' father with ISIS ... for me, that's too much of a stretch and I am a lawyer (talk about someone who stretches), and I am no fan of Ted Cruz.

I think there is a difference between a war waged by religious zealots and a war by the have-nots against perceived oppression by the haves.

I think the answer is not to take refugees -- or this will not end. Stop the craziness.

To me, it is somewhat of an admission of failure of policy that people must leave their country or region. We must say no -- force the politicians to set up camps in Turkey and Jordan, supply them with money and people, and set up refugee cities, and bring pressure for a ceasefire in Syria, and focus on the other enemy. If Assad must remain for awhile, I'd force an agreement with him - amnesty, money, and leave his country after a period of time. Everyone has dirty hands in this mess. Make the best of the dirt with which you are working.

Oh, I will probably not respond. The point is this whole mess is a failure. Why make it worse? Time to stop the merry-go-round.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Mr. Desmond

[rkim291968]

45 minutes ago, dkolo said:

There's a lot of misinformation and fearmongering with respect to the refugee programs. This article offers some insight into what the actual process is for a refugee into the U.S. and how stringent it is compared with other nations. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34848248

The bigger issue is after the refugees settle.   They do not easily assimilate, they lack resource to succeed.   Their children inherits their culture, poverty, and look for different ways to be accepted (like kids in ghetto are attracted to gangs).   ISIS and other similar groups will exploit this.

I am just applying math here.   For every 10000 Syrian/Iraqi refugees we accept, let's say 1% of their kids will grow up to sympathize with ISIS.  That's 100.  Let's assume for the sake of argument, 1% of those who sympathize turns to violence.   That's 1 in 10000.   Let's say those refugees invite their relatives through legal means every year, and so on and so on.    We won't be talking about 1 or 2 terrorists.  In 20 years, I can't even guess what those numbers will be.   We will be in the same situation as France - having no resource to monitor all those kids turned ISIS.  That's not what I want my child and his children to deal with.  

And let me reiterate, I am not a Christian and don't believe in turning the other cheek in this case.   It's about preserving my way of life in US as best as I can.