balls comes to rest against fallen OB stake

[no3putts]

Hit a drive that came to rest against an OB stake that was no longer standing up.  It was a small wooden OB stake and somehow had fallen over and my ball was now resting against it.  Do I get relief or play as it lies?  We also couldn't tell exactly where the stakes should go since we didn't see an obvious hole in the ground.

[bubble]

thats a good question.

I would consider that the stake marks the OB where it lies even if it is fallen or misplaced un less the committee is available for questioning as to where the OB is supposed to be.

therefore if my ball is totally beyond the line from that stake to the next mark then my ball is out of bounds.

If the ball lies within the ground I would have it as it lies and play it someway or take a relief such as unplayable etC.

[Martyn W]

If an OB stake is displaced, it becomes an obstruction. you may move it. If your ball moves incidental to moving the stake, replace it with no penalty.

[Martyn W]

33-2a/20

 

Displaced Boundary Stake

Q.A boundary stake has fallen down, or has been removed without authority of the Committee. The stake is lying several feet from the hole in which it had been situated. It is obvious that the stake had been displaced.

A player's ball comes to rest in bounds near the hole in which the boundary stake had been situated. The ball is in such a position that, if the boundary stake were reinstalled, it would interfere with the player's swing.

Is the player required to replace the stake before playing his next stroke?

A.No. If a boundary fence or stake is leaning towards the course and as a result interferes with a player's swing, the player is not allowed to straighten the fence or the stake - see Decision 13-2/18. It follows that, if the boundary fence or stake is leaning away from the course the player is not allowed to straighten it.

A displaced boundary stake is a movable obstruction. Therefore, the player may replace it but he is not required to do so.

[Golfingdad]

32 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

If an OB stake is displaced, it becomes an obstruction. you may move it. If your ball moves incidental to moving the stake, replace it with no penalty.

The problem in ops case is that he doesn't know if he's in bounds or not.  What then?

my first instinct would be to play two balls, one assuming I can't move the stake and one assuming I can.  For the ball where I can't move the stake, I'd probably take an unplayable. Then take it to the committee afterward. The obvious problem with that, though, is that I'm not addressing the possibility that my ball is OB.  Is there a provision in 3-3 that would allow me to play out with three balls, lol? :)

good question op.

[Martyn W]

16 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

  Is there a provision in 3-3 that would allow me to play out with three balls, lol? :)

 

3-3/10

 

Competitor Plays Three Balls When Doubtful of Rights

Q.Are there any circumstances under which a competitor in stroke play, who is doubtful of his rights or procedure, may play a third ball under Rule 3-3?

A.No. If a competitor so proceeds, the score with the original ball or, if the original ball is not one of the balls being played, the first ball put into play shall count. If the Rules do not allow the procedure adopted for the original ball or the first ball put into play, the competitor incurs the penalty prescribed for the improper procedure.

[DrvFrShow]

Boundary marker found on its side, possibly displaced further outside of its original position but unknown; original hole not obvious due to conditions. Ball lands inside of this marker. Procedure? Play as it lies?

[CoachB25]

5 hours ago, Martyn W said:

If an OB stake is displaced, it becomes an obstruction. you may move it. If your ball moves incidental to moving the stake, replace it with no penalty.

This how I had a similar situation ruled.  Probably the stake was in play a little more than in OP but wanted a ruling in a tournament.  BTW, a number of stakes were "moved" to clean up OB line and some not replaced.  It was easy to replace in the correct position after ruling for the following groups to have a cleared course. 

[pganapathy]

A pole in the ground may not be moved but one that is displaced and lying down is considered a movable obstruction, even more so in the event that you fear it may damage your club.  Move it

[Fourputt]

3 hours ago, pganapathy said:

A pole in the ground may not be moved but one that is displaced and lying down is considered a movable obstruction, even more so in the event that you fear it may damage your club.  Move it

Fear that it may damage one's club does not make it "more movable".  It is either movable or not under a rule.  If it is not movable, then the player may take relief by moving the ball under a rule.  That relief may involve a penalty (Rules 26 or 28), or may not involve a penalty (Rules 24 or 25), depending on the situation and the rule procedure that is being followed. 

You do not get more latitude for moving an object just because of a threat of club damage.

[Golfingdad]

On 11/15/2015, 11:26:53, Martyn W said:

33-2a/20

 

Displaced Boundary Stake

Q.A boundary stake has fallen down, or has been removed without authority of the Committee. The stake is lying several feet from the hole in which it had been situated. It is obvious that the stake had been displaced.

A player's ball comes to rest in bounds near the hole in which the boundary stake had been situated. The ball is in such a position that, if the boundary stake were reinstalled, it would interfere with the player's swing.

Is the player required to replace the stake before playing his next stroke?

A.No. If a boundary fence or stake is leaning towards the course and as a result interferes with a player's swing, the player is not allowed to straighten the fence or the stake - see Decision 13-2/18. It follows that, if the boundary fence or stake is leaning away from the course the player is not allowed to straighten it.

A displaced boundary stake is a movable obstruction. Therefore, the player may replace it but he is not required to do so.

 

On 11/15/2015, 11:44:29, Golfingdad said:

The problem in ops case is that he doesn't know if he's in bounds or not.  What then?

So it seems we have an answer to a question similar to the one posed in the OP, but not an answer to the actual question posed.  Martin's decision is clearly predicated on the idea that the correct location of the OB stake is known and that the ball is in bounds, but the OP stated that they did not know where the stake belonged since they couldn't find the hole it came out of.

What then?  Do they do their best to figure out the intent of the stakes (perhaps there is a curb or cart path that the rest of the stakes follow) or are they required to go by the nearest two OB stakes that haven't fallen over?  In that case, it's easy to see how a ball that is OB gets to be played and a ball that was in bounds must now be treated as OB.

Lots of potential messiness here with a course that is not well marked.

[CoachB25]

I am not as well versed in the rule citations but I thought that in the case you can't determine the OB line, you are to seek out the first two established makers between the ball and potential OB.  I know we play a course each year where there is an OB inside the course between two holes that golfers used to try to cheat on their drive to gain an advantage on one hole.  On that course, it is not uncommon for someone to lift an OB once in a while.  So, the guys I play with simply agree to draw that line before play every year.  We like the course but hate that local rule/hole layout. 

[Martyn W]

1 hour ago, CoachB25 said:

I am not as well versed in the rule citations but I thought that in the case you can't determine the OB line, you are to seek out the first two established makers between the ball and potential OB.  I know we play a course each year where there is an OB inside the course between two holes that golfers used to try to cheat on their drive to gain an advantage on one hole.  On that course, it is not uncommon for someone to lift an OB once in a while.  So, the guys I play with simply agree to draw that line before play every year.  We like the course but hate that local rule/hole layout. 

The simple solution is to 'dot' the stakes. A white dot sprayed at the base of the posts leaves players in no doubt as to where the OB line is. I officiated at an NCAA event a couple of years ago at a course which had OB on every hole -the day before the event I sprayed 1200 dots!

[rogolf]

We paint the ground around the stake white, like a donut around the base of the stake.  Identifies where the stake is meant to be.  Not much different than a dot.  I have used dots on asphalt as posts to minimize painting anything that is permanent.

[CoachB25]

12 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

The simple solution is to 'dot' the stakes. A white dot sprayed at the base of the posts leaves players in no doubt as to where the OB line is. I officiated at an NCAA event a couple of years ago at a course which had OB on every hole -the day before the event I sprayed 1200 dots!

Yes, this is what is done when my HS plays a tournament on this course. 

[no3putts]

"So it seems we have an answer to a question similar to the one posed in the OP, but not an answer to the actual question posed.  Martin's decision is clearly predicated on the idea that the correct location of the OB stake is known and that the ball is in bounds, but the OP stated that they did not know where the stake belonged since they couldn't find the hole it came out of.

What then?  Do they do their best to figure out the intent of the stakes (perhaps there is a curb or cart path that the rest of the stakes follow) or are they required to go by the nearest two OB stakes that haven't fallen over?  In that case, it's easy to see how a ball that is OB gets to be played and a ball that was in bounds must now be treated as OB.

Lots of potential messiness here with a course that is not well marked."

 

That from Golfingdad.  I'm the one that posted the original question and believe the ball was in bounds but felt you can never move an OP stake whether upright or laying down.  I ended up hitting it as it laid, advanced ball 20-30 yards, sent OB stake flying and didn't damage club or my wrists.  So all in all ok out come but it sounds like if you know you're in bounds then the stake could have been moved.

[pganapathy]

Provided the stake is displaced and lying on the ground, it can be treated as a movable obstruction.  However, you do need to determine, if possible, whether you are OB or not.  If it is not possible to determine, you need to play one ball continuing from there and another teeing off again (first ball is OB), mark the location and then ask the tournament rules committee to decide whether you were OB or not.