Tensions rising in the region. Turkey shoots down Russian Su-24

[Gator Hazard]

6 minutes ago, Braivo said:

I don't disagree with this. Russia is playing games for sure.

The disturbing part for me is Turkey, a supposed NATO ally, doesn't seem to keen on fighting our greatest enemy - ISIS. The first chance to engage and help them and they did. This was not "self-defense" because everyone in their right mind knows Russia was not going to attach Turkey unprovoked. 

Also, they just "cut the corner" over Turkish airspace. lol. 

 

 

They are two different conversations though in my mind.  We as Americans could say the same thing, that Russia would never attack us but I think you would agree that we have the right and obligation to protect and defend our airspace.  They did the same, it is defense of their airspace.  I guarantee you if a Turkish warplance crossed into Russian airspace they would have blown it to smithereens. 

Turkey not getting involved could be a number of issues and could be the culmination of having been involved in so much of our campaigns as it is over the past 14 years.  Perhaps Turkey looks at it and says "do we really want to engage in another military campaign in our backyard for our NATO allies?".  Turkey may think yesterday Al Qaeda was their greatest enemy. today ISIS is their greatest enemy, who is it tomorrow?  As a nation I am not sure I would want to be surrounded by people I have pissed off by fighting in conflicts with them all i.e. Israel.    

Edited November 24, 2015 by Gator Hazard

[rkim291968]

17 minutes ago, Braivo said:

 

The disturbing part for me is Turkey, a supposed NATO ally, doesn't seem to keen on fighting our greatest enemy - ISIS.

Well, as I understand it, they don't want the Kurds (who is fighting ISIS) to gain control through all this mess.   It is a mess!  

 

In regards to Assad, if he falls, like other countries in that region, things can deteriorate even more.  Anarchy comes to mind.   Let's face it.   That region isn't ready for democratic government (or whatever US thinks of how they should run their country).   The known, proven recipe for ruling the country in that region - a strong dictator/king with military back up.  Nothing else will work.

[Abu3baid]

1 minute ago, rkim291968 said:

Well, as I understand it, they don't want the Kurds (who is fighting ISIS) to gain control through all this mess.   It is a mess!  

 

In regards to Assad, if he falls, like other countries in that region, things can deteriorate even more.  Anarchy comes to mind.   Let's face it.   That region isn't ready for democratic government (or whatever US thinks of how they should run their country).   The known, proven recipe for ruling the country in that region - a strong dictator/king with military back up.  Nothing else will work.

True, look at the last democratic elected government in Egypt?  It only took 1 year in office before a military coup took place and a military strong man like his predecessor Mubarak took over..  Of course killing thousands of innocent protesters during it with very little reaction from the world.. No one wants to see a democratically elected government in the Middle East period..  

However at the same time, no one wants someone who uses Chem weapons against their own people like Assad either..  

Plus spot on about the Kurds as the Turks consider them a terrorist group.

[newtogolf]

40 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

I'm not sure where you get this information from, the salafists?  The people on the ground were mostly regular people and the soldiers who split from the army when the Assad government started killing the peaceful protesters.  Later on maybe other groups started forming and calling themselves different names, and eventually ISIS started sending generals and soldiers into Syria after taking swaths of land.

Just a quick search on google and you can get a good idea of who the coalition is made up of and it doesn't mention the word salafists.

"A broader opposition umbrella group, the National Coalition for Syrian Revolutionary and Opposition Forces, was formed in November 2012 and has gained recognition as the "legitimate representative of the Syrian people" by the Cooperation Council for the Arab States of the Gulf (CCASG) and as a "representative of aspirations of Syrian people" by the Arab League.^[11] The Syrian National Coalition was subsequently given the seat of Syria in the Arab League, with Ba'athist Syria representative suspended"

 

Quote

Salafism is a generic term which refers to a branch of Sunni fundamentalist Islamic thought. It claims that the religion founded by Muhammad and his companions was perfect at the time of its creation but that it has subsequently been weakened by materialist interferences, rationalism, and innovations.

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21564912-salafists-are-rise-have-not-dominated-opposition%E2%80%94so-far

http://levantreport.com/2015/05/19/2012-defense-intelligence-agency-document-west-will-facilitate-rise-of-islamic-state-in-order-to-isolate-the-syrian-regime/

[Abu3baid]

13 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21564912-salafists-are-rise-have-not-dominated-opposition%E2%80%94so-far

I fear that you maybe misunderstanding what the document says and the fact that a lot of it was redacted and you only see bits and pieces..  Here is from the same source an analysis on the document.

They were always supporting the FSA (free Syrian army) and the fact that they foresaw what could happen doesn't mean they were supporting them..

plus the first article mentions that they are one of the groups and not the only one, plus the fact that they were not part of the coalition granted acceptance at the UN as the opposition.

http://levantreport.com/2015/05/26/guest-analysis-by-robert-barsocchini-a-critical-examination-of-the-dia-document-on-dynamics-of-syrian-conflict/

[CR McDivot]

Where was the capital of the last Islamic Caliphate?

Might that explain Turkey's reluctance to oppose ISIL?

And the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (an invention of the Brits after the fall of the Ottoman Empire) fear of her renewal?

Anyone care to define the Levant?

I'm sure the Coptic, Syriac, and Eastern Orthodox Christians can explain it to you.

Or maybe ask the Armenians, or question what happened at the Gates of Vienna. Who was Charles the Hammer?

To understand what is, and what is to come, one must have an understanding of what has been.

I think probably Putin has a better concept of this than Obama (or perhaps Barrak still hears the azhan ), not that I am an acolyte of either.

Edited November 25, 2015 by CR McDivot

[Abu3baid]

35 minutes ago, CR McDivot said:

Where was the capital of the last Islamic Caliphate?

Might that explain Turkey's reluctance to oppose ISIL?

And the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (an invention of the Brits after the fall of the Ottoman Empire) fear of her renewal?

Anyone care to define the Levant?

I'm sure the Coptic, Syriac, and Eastern Orthodox Christians can explain it to you.

Or maybe ask the Armenians, or question what happened at the Gates of Vienna. Who was Charles the Hammer?

To understand what is, and what is to come, one must have an understanding of what has been.

I think probably Putin has a better concept of this than Obama (or perhaps Barrak still hears the azhan ), not that I am an acolyte of either.

Your disdain for Islam and Muslim makes it difficult for me to even engage you in conversation regarding this subject.  

There isn't anywhere for you to hide if we start talking about the massacres and atrocities committed by Christians against both the Muslims and Jews..  The Spanish inquisitions and the eradication of Jews pretty much cover any thing the Muslims have ever done in history..  

And your slight at Obama hearing the Athan is laughable, but maybe you do believe that Obama is a Muslim don't you?

[CR McDivot]

47 minutes ago, Abu3baid said:

Your disdain for Islam and Muslim...

I judge the tree by it's fruit.

You choose not to address the questions?

[Abu3baid]

3 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Where was the capital of the last Islamic Caliphate?

Istanbul 

3 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Might that explain Turkey's reluctance to oppose ISIL?

No, http://www.wsj.com/articles/turkey-steps-up-its-fight-against-islamic-state-1448044846

Quote

The Turkish military has bolstered its presence on the Syrian border, sporadically clashing with Islamic State, which controls a 60-mile stretch that U.S. Secretary of StateJohn Kerry said this week will be sealed off in a joint operation with Turkey.

Just last week, Turkish troops killed at least five suspected Islamic State members and detained about two dozen seeking to cross into Turkey. Turkish jets have also been striking the extremist group in Syria, and local authorities have detained more than 1,000 Islamic State suspects in nationwide raids this year.

 

---

3 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

And the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia's (an invention of the Brits after the fall of the Ottoman Empire) fear of her renewal?

What does this have to do with the topic??

3 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Anyone care to define the Levant?

I'm sure the Coptic, Syriac, and Eastern Orthodox Christians can explain it to you.

What's your point again? They were persecuted and exiled and murdered?  Is that what you are trying to get to?  I already mentioned in my first response the incidents of the Spanish inquisition and Jewish people extermination, so there isn't much in terms of having a monopoly on massacres and the like.  However, what does this have to do with the topic at hand anyway?

3 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

Or maybe ask the Armenians, or question what happened at the Gates of Vienna. Who was Charles the Hammer?

Where is this going?  There were many wars and victories and defeats.. I fail to see the point you are trying to make in relation to the topic we are all discussing?

 

3 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

To understand what is, and what is to come, one must have an understanding of what has been.

I answered your questions to the best of my ability, but now I know why I originally didn't.  It is because the questions didn't make any sense the first time, and now I've confirmed it, as answering them didn't further the conversation any... 

 

[iacas]

9 hours ago, CR McDivot said:

I judge the tree by it's fruit.

Are you completely unaware of the massive atrocities committed on behalf of Christianity or Jesus or God?

Heck, you don't even have to go back that far.

I'm going to go back to ignoring threads like this, but that jumped out at me…

[Gator Hazard]

6 minutes ago, iacas said:

Are you completely unaware of the massive atrocities committed on behalf of Christianity or Jesus or God?

Heck, you don't even have to go back that far.

I'm going to go back to ignoring threads like this, but that jumped out at me…

There is nothing wrong with the thread, there was something wrong with the post.

[Golfingdad]

19 minutes ago, Gator Hazard said:

There is nothing wrong with the thread, there was something wrong with the post.

But his point is, and it's hard to dispute, that threads like this ALWAYS cultivate posts like that. :)

They dont show up (or should say 'rarely') in posts about the golf swing or the PGA tour. (Unless tiger is involved) :P

[Gator Hazard]

Just now, Golfingdad said:

But his point is, and it's hard to dispute, that threads like this ALWAYS cultivate posts like that. :)

They dont show up (or should say 'rarely') in posts about the golf swing or the PGA tour. (Unless tiger is involved) :P

Tiger does bring out some crazy responses in the threads.  All you have to do is say "Is Tiger the GOAT" three times and click your heels and trolls start poppin!

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Gator Hazard said:

There is nothing wrong with the thread, there was something wrong with the post.

I don't read the off-topic threads very much. I'm here to talk about golf and, generally, get along with people. Not to find things on which we differ. We have golf in common, and I try to stick to that.

[CR McDivot]

Why the shootdown?

 

Quote

Moscow has accused Turkey of helping Islamic State in the illegal oil trade which helps finance the terrorist group. According to analysts, Russian airstrikes in Syria are disrupting the profitable deals for Turkish middlemen, including Ankara officials.

Turkish social media has posted photos of Turkish President Recep Erdogan’s son Necmettin Bilal having dinner in an Istambul restaurant with an alleged ISIS leader, who it is claimed participated in massacres in Syria’s Homs and Rojava, the Kurdish name for Syrian Kurdistan or Western Kurdistan.

There is speculation Bilal Erdogan is directly involved in the black market oil business with Islamic State.

“IS has big money, hundreds of millions or even billions of dollars, from selling oil. In addition they are protected by the military of an entire nation. One can understand why they are acting so boldly and blatantly. Why they kill people in such atrocious ways. Why they commit terrorist acts across the world, including in the heart of Europe,” said Russian President Vladimir Putin on Tuesday, after a Turkish F16 downed a Russian Su-24 jet near the Turkish-Syrian border.

Last October, the US Under Secretary for Terrorism and Financial Intelligence David Cohen said Islamic State was earning $1 million a day from oil sales. “According to our information, as of last month, ISIL [now more commonly known as ISIS] was selling oil at substantially discounted prices to a variety of middlemen, including some from Turkey, who then transported the oil to be resold. It also appears that some of the oil emanating from territory where ISIL operates has been sold to Kurds in Iraq, and then resold into Turkey,” he said.

According to Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev, the middlemen in Turkey are not only entrepreneurs, but are Ankara officials. Turkey is protecting Islamic State because of “direct financial interest of some Turkish officials relating to the supply of oil products refined by plants controlled by ISIS.”

Russian political analyst Igor Yushkov from the National Energy Security Fund said Moscow’s anti-terror operation in Syria makes such business much more difficult.

“Nowadays the truck columns have to disperse and their payload has grown smaller. Before the operation buyers would visit the oilfields themselves, now they have had to organize a new cluster,” he told Gazeta.ru. He added that oil extraction will decrease because ISIS lacks qualified specialists.

A member of the expert council of the Russian Oil Industry Union Eldar Kasayev said Islamic State is selling oil at $15–25 per barrel, which is much cheaper than the Brent benchmark, trading at $45-50.

"By reselling it, Ankara has the opportunity to earn extra income and continue to bomb the Kurds, saying its bombing radicals,” he said.

 

[CR McDivot]

Putin - Defender of the Faith?

 

Quote

 

Russia Declares ‘Holy War’ on Islamic State

While Obama sides with Christian-murdering “freedom fighters.”

The Orthodox Christian Church, which is reclaiming its traditional role in post-Soviet Russia, has just described its government’s fight against the Islamic State and other jihadi groups in Syria as a “holy war.”

According to Vsevolod Chaplin, head of the Church’s Public Affairs Department,

The fight with terrorism is a holy battle and today our country is perhaps the most active force in the world fighting it.  The Russian Federation has made a responsible decision on the use of armed forces to defend the People of Syria from the sorrows caused by the arbitrariness of terrorists. Christians are suffering in the region with the kidnapping of clerics and the destruction of churches. Muslims are suffering no less.

This is not a pretext to justify intervention in Syria.  For years, Russia’s Orthodox leaders have been voicing their concern for persecuted Christians.  Back in February 2012, the Russian church described to Vladimir Putin the horrific treatment Christians are experiencing around the world, especially under Islam:

The head of External Church Relations, Metropolitan Illarion, said that every five minutes one Christian was dying for his or her faith in some part of the world, specifying that he was talking about such countries as Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan and India. The cleric asked Putin to make the protection of Christians one of the foreign policy directions in future.

“This is how it will be, have no doubt,” Putin answered.

 

Follow the link above to read the entire article.

[JonMA1]

Yeah, that Putin is quite the saint.