Stack-n-Tilt - Still Screwing up Golfers after All These Years

[Phil McGleno]

https://www.golftec.com/blog/2015/12/avoid-chunked-golf-shots-drill-doorway/

What in God's green earth is that hot garbage?-No you should not use a doorway that way.

A PAL wanted me to add this to the conversation.-This is from their head trainer.

[iacas]

No need to protect my privacy on the second post. That's all me, and it's a Melainey Gunning post (picture) showing a student improving. Apparently, by moving their head a foot forward during the backswing?

Horrible.

We never taught it this way, or even close.

[mvmac]

Wow, that's unfortunate. How can Andy and Mike allow that kind of stuff to be posted? At what point did they think it was ok for the head to move forward during the swing? Mac and Bender don't teach this stuff.

S&T "by the book" is a good pattern: lead shoulder moves down and in to the center of rotation, head is centered. The obsession with "weight forward" and thoracic extension has made the S&T people a parody of themselves.

Mike Bennett doesn't move his head forward and overextend.

Here's a swing where he's trying to hit a big draw (ball back on purpose).

If anyone wants to know how they should really use a doorway/wall, do THIS.

[GolfLug]

So, the whole idea is to NOT let your weight move on the outside of EITHER feet at any point, especially at top of BS, yes?

[mvmac]

3 minutes ago, GolfLug said:

So, the whole idea is to NOT let your weight move on the outside of EITHER feet at any point, especially at top of BS, yes?

For this thread the idea is to point out how silly the drill is and to not move your head forward on the backswing.

[GolfLug]

Just now, mvmac said:

For this thread the idea is to point out how silly the drill is and to not move your head forward on the backswing.

Oh yes wholeheartedly agreed. Sitting here at the desk, I actually stood up and simulated and that's what I noticed happened. But yes, not the thread for that discussion. I will post in the S&T thread (or just read, I am sure this can't be new information in that thread).  

 

[iacas]

39 minutes ago, mvmac said:

S&T "by the book" is a good pattern: lead shoulder moves down and in to the center of rotation, head is centered. The obsession with "weight forward" and thoracic extension has made the S&T people a parody of themselves.

Completely agree with all of that.

[scopek]

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

Wow, that's unfortunate. How can Andy and Mike allow that kind of stuff to be posted? At what point did they think it was ok for the head to move forward during the swing? Mac and Bender don't teach this stuff.

S&T "by the book" is a good pattern: lead shoulder moves down and in to the center of rotation, head is centered. The obsession with "weight forward" and thoracic extension has made the S&T people a parody of themselves.

Mike Bennett doesn't move his head forward and overextend.

Here's a swing where he's trying to hit a big draw (ball back on purpose).

If anyone wants to know how they should really use a doorway/wall, do THIS.

How do you know Bennett and Plummer are advocating or allowing that? (I ask that with complete sincerity, BTW.) I'm obviously not a S&T expert or pro, but I've never read or had any S&T instructor advocating anything but a steady head and centered pivot. I've seen drills where instructors will ask to exaggerate the side tilt on the backswing by trying to get the *feel* of the head moving forward, but it was always clear that the head should be steady as much as possible through the actual swing. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, scopek said:

How do you know Bennett and Plummer are advocating or allowing that?

1. They allow posts like that - and comment and endorse publicly - on their Facebook group, etc.
2. Melainey is their head trainer.

5 minutes ago, scopek said:

I'm obviously not a S&T expert or pro, but I've never read or had any S&T instructor advocating anything but a steady head and centered pivot. I've seen drills where instructors will ask to exaggerate the side tilt on the backswing by trying to get the *feel* of the head moving forward, but it was always clear that the head should be steady as much as possible through the actual swing. 

That's not exaggerating side tilt (which is another mistake a lot of S&T folks make). It's an issue of over-extending. Side tilt changes the direction the head moves continually throughout the backswing. At A1, it makes the head go to and fro (targetward/away from target). At A4, it only moves the head up and down.

[scopek]

34 minutes ago, iacas said:

1. They allow posts like that - and comment and endorse publicly - on their Facebook group, etc.
2. Melainey is their head trainer.

That's not exaggerating side tilt (which is another mistake a lot of S&T folks make). It's an issue of over-extending. Side tilt changes the direction the head moves continually throughout the backswing. At A1, it makes the head go to and fro (targetward/away from target). At A4, it only moves the head up and down.

Thanks, Erik. Makes sense about the extending vs. tilting. It would be interesting to get Mike or Andy's take on the head movement. 

[iacas]

5 minutes ago, scopek said:

Thanks, Erik. Makes sense about the extending vs. tilting. It would be interesting to get Mike or Andy's take on the head movement. 

It might, but at the same time, it raises the point about when something kind of stops being "yours." If they continue to allow people to do this, and even subtly endorse it, at which point does it become "theirs" too?

[mvmac]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

They allow posts like that - and comment and endorse publicly - on their Facebook group, etc.

Right this isn't the first time we've seen posts like this, been going on for years. There are some S&T instructors that know/work closely with Mike and Andy that post videos on Instagram with golfers in some weird positions. "Super" stacked looking at 4 with a full speed motion.

[Dave325]

Excuse my ignorance on this subject (just trying to learn something)... What exactly is the S&T and where did it originate? Do any of the pros endorse it?

[scopek]

7 minutes ago, mvmac said:

Right this isn't the first time we've seen posts like this, been going on for years. There are some S&T instructors that know/work closely with Mike and Andy that post videos on Instagram with golfers in some weird positions. "Super" stacked looking at 4 with a full speed motion.

To give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they just aren't tech savy and aren't reading those posts? 

[mvmac]

35 minutes ago, Dave325 said:

Excuse my ignorance on this subject (just trying to learn something)... What exactly is the S&T and where did it originate? Do any of the pros endorse it?

Stack and Tilt is a pattern/swing developed by Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett. They were influenced by the MORAD system (Mac O'Grady), The Golfing Machine and Mike Bender. They took some really good information and just went really extreme with it.

At one time they were working with 8-10 tour pros.

33 minutes ago, scopek said:

To give them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they just aren't tech savy and aren't reading those posts? 

They're active on social media. 

Also these videos on their YouTube page.

 

[dkolo]

6 hours ago, mvmac said:

If anyone wants to know how they should really use a doorway/wall, do THIS.

I believe the correct way to use a doorway in this scenario is to use it to run away from the guy teaching these swings, haha.

[iacas]

46 minutes ago, mvmac said:

They're active on social media. 

Also these videos on their YouTube page.

Yeah, and there's Melainey again, and Steve. That's one of the dumbest videos I've ever seen.

Seriously, a horrible, terrible video. Lousy.

[scopek]

33 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yeah, and there's Melainey again, and Steve. That's one of the dumbest videos I've ever seen.

Seriously, a horrible, terrible video. Lousy.

excuse my ignorance, but why?