Swinging With the Body/Loose Arms and Wrists

[Lihu]

55 minutes ago, mnguy19 said:

1 hour ago, Marty2019 said:

Just thinking a little further on this line: 

You and I are in the same mode of thought about this, but, ruminating further, perhaps it's not the relaxing of the hands and wrists that is the fundamental cause of the improved results.   Perhaps relaxing the hands and wrists is causing us to come down with better lag and and improved swing plane, and that is what is actually causing the improved results. 

I have no doubt on that as well. I think relaxing/loosening the arms/wrists has a chain reaction of positive outcomes in the swing. I will say though, that if I came down in the slot on a good plane and proceeded forward with tense arms my swing still wouldn't be very good or at least I wouldn't get the distance I am getting now. For me, I have noticed that allowing the core muscles to direct my arms puts them on a better swing plane and creates lag without any conscious effort on my part. My main swing thought is to relax the arms/wrists and there is a domino effect of positive outcomes because of it.  I think that when we "turn the arms off", we allow the arms to fall first instead of chopping our arms forward. As a result, we get both the lag we want and at the same time put our club on a more ideal swing plane.

This is honestly why I am so in love with my newfound swing, I don't have to think as much about minute details. For me, it feels like timing and tempo are now more in focus than before, other than re-training my brain to stop trying to swipe at the ball when I get excited about distance.

I've noticed just from reading a lot about PGA tour pros that many of them have different swing thoughts that can sound drastically different from one another. They also all have great distance and accuracy so in terms of what is actually going on in any given swing, if it works for you then do it. I intend to upload a swing on here too so that may help me get a better picture of what is actually happening. It may be helpful to understand that but until my swing stops producing great results I'm going to keep on.

 

I agree that to get from a tense "beginners" swing to a "relaxed bogey swing", you probably would need to just "relax". If you relax the wrists and the arms maybe it does help synchronize things that should happen in the downswing. However, in a fully developed swing, everything is active. Specific muscles in the legs, hips, torso, shoulders arms and wrists are fully active. Everything is active and in proper sequence to generate the power you need to get out of the "relaxed bogey swing".

A hypothetical example could be something like the following. Let's say a "relaxed bogey swing" can get you 208 yard drives (Note that most people think they drive this far or farther, but only half of them do), then a fully developed swing can get you something in between 240 and even up to 300 yards or more. Also, note that if you could you could really drive even 240 yards you would pretty much dominate 6000 yard courses.

The difference is that in a fully developed swing you are actively powering through impact. Nothing about a fully developed swing is "relaxed" at all.

 

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

1 hour ago, Lihu said:

 

I agree that to get from a tense "beginners" swing to a "relaxed bogey swing", you probably would need to just "relax". If you relax the wrists and the arms maybe it does help synchronize things that should happen in the downswing. However, in a fully developed swing, everything is active. Specific muscles in the legs, hips, torso, shoulders arms and wrists are fully active. Everything is active and in proper sequence to generate the power you need to get out of the "relaxed bogey swing".

A hypothetical example could be something like the following. Let's say a "relaxed bogey swing" can get you 208 yard drives (Note that most people think they drive this far or farther, but only half of them do), then a fully developed swing can get you something in between 240 and even up to 300 yards or more. Also, note that if you could you could really drive even 240 yards you would pretty much dominate 6000 yard courses.

The difference is that in a fully developed swing you are actively powering through impact. Nothing about a fully developed swing is "relaxed" at all.

 

I agree that to get from a tense "beginners" swing to a "relaxed bogey swing", you probably would need to just "relax". If you relax the wrists and the arms maybe it does help synchronize things that should happen in the downswing. However, in a fully developed swing, everything is active. Specific muscles in the legs, hips, torso, shoulders arms and wrists are fully active. Everything is active and in proper sequence to generate the power you need to get out of the "relaxed bogey swing".

A hypothetical example could be something like the following. Let's say a "relaxed bogey swing" can get you 208 yard drives (Note that most people think they drive this far or farther, but only half of them do), then a fully developed swing can get you something in between 240 and even up to 300 yards or more. Also, note that if you could you could really drive even 240 yards you would pretty much dominate 6000 yard courses.

The difference is that in a fully developed swing you are actively powering through impact. Nothing about a fully developed swing is "relaxed" at all.

 

 

I think we're batting around a lot of semantics here.  

Let's be clear; when I talk about a relaxed swing, I am talking about relaxing/getting the tension out/whatever you want to call it, the arms from just above the elbow to the end of the fingers.    Not totally relaxed.    Just not tense and locked up.   They have to be allowed to swing freely.    Personally, that's all I'm talking about. 

Now, if you're telling me I can pick up more distance by utilizing power from my hands, wrists, and forearms, I'm all ears.  

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, Marty2019 said:

 

I think we're batting around a lot of semantics here.  

Let's be clear; when I talk about a relaxed swing, I am talking about relaxing/getting the tension out/whatever you want to call it, the arms from just above the elbow to the end of the fingers.    Not totally relaxed.    Just not tense and locked up.   They have to be allowed to swing freely.    Personally, that's all I'm talking about. 

Now, if you're telling me I can pick up more distance by utilizing power from my hands, wrists, and forearms, I'm all ears.  

 

Not semantics. Unless, I'm totally not understanding what you said which is also possible, but I don't think so in this case. The golf swing is far from "relaxed".

Also it's not me telling you that you can gain distance, it's the nature of the golf swing. Just read more of the information from this site. Within the confines of your natural coordination and overall athletic ability, you too can drive farther and hit all your clubs farther.

[Big Lex]

On ‎3‎/‎6‎/‎2016 at 10:38 PM, mnguy19 said:

So recently I decided that I wanted to really focus in on why I was hitting the ball so short compared to all the guys at the range. I've noticed more and more that when I loosen up and relax (without trying to chop at the ball) I've been hitting it further and making better contact. I've started revamping my swing as now when I reach the top of my back swing, my main thought is loose arms and loose wrists. Once I let my wrists hinge I turn my arms off and cue my hips and lower body to start moving. When I have been able to swing with my body I've been hitting the ball further than I ever have by a mile. The problem that I've found is that it is ridiculously hard for me to keep my arms turned off because every time I crush one swinging the right way, I somehow start tensing up trying to hit the ball farther and then my good swing goes away. The nice thing about swinging the with the body is that now I understand all the talk about tempo and letting the club do the work. The problem however is getting my body to do what doesn't feel natural and get used to powering my swing from the ground up. 

I guess why I'm writing is because I was wondering what other people have done to make this transition easier. I'm sure a lot will come down to practice but I thought if anyone had any tricks or tips they've used to remind themselves to swing with the body it could be very helpful. For some reason at the range, at some point my brain stops believing that the easier, more effortless swing will won't work anymore and it becomes a struggle to loosen up and relax. Honestly, I'm not even as concerned about power, just some consistency with making good contact. Thanks guys.

I'm 51. Last season I lowered my handicap more than in any other single season. What I worked on in the full swing was just trying to swing the club freely, fluidly, and as fast as possible. If I needed something a bit more specific to think about, I would monitor my grip pressure at the start and finish of the swing. No mechanical ideas, no positions, no planes, no knees, hips, shoulders, etc. Just a swing, as free and fluid as I could make it. Just trust it and go.

So I think the general type of thing you are doing worked very well for me. Specifically, I don't know if I can answer your question about sequencing and ingraining the proper move, beyond just lots of repetition. But I would think of the swing as simply one piece; I wouldn't key on upper versus lower body or even backswing and forward swing. Let it fly.

If you don't want to try that or don't think it would work for you, my advice would be to try extending the "loose" feeling into your backswing. I think if you do that, you may find that the sequencing of your downswing will happen correctly more naturally. If you swing back nice and freely and loose, your body might naturally react in the correct way and lead with the lower body coming down.

I guess there is a limit to everything but every golfer I see who carries more than maybe a 5 or 6 handicap looks like they could benefit from moving more, swinging faster, more freely, etc., not less. So resist the temptation to tighten up the action in any way in order to get more control. If anything, be even more loose.

YMMV. Consult your local pro when in doubt.  

[JonMA1]

While i have close to no idea of what's happening in my golf swing, much less anyone else's, I can tell when I'm swinging easier and i can tell when the ball goes further. it ain't just feel and it is very real.

What I'm not claiming...

• I'm not using the muscles in my arms to swing the club
• My swing is as good as it can possibly be while I'm doing this
• I don't swing harder with my arms (as well as my body) just before impact
• I have complete control over this and can repeat it any time I want
• this will work with anyone else

What I am claiming is that when my arms have less tension (relaxed), my grip a bit looser and my tempo slower, I get better results. And to take it a bit further, when my ball striking is on during the span of several rounds, those three things are occurring. I can only guess as to why my results are better when I control my tempo and relax my arms and grip. More than likely, by slowing my backswing and the start of my downswing, I am improving my sequencing. And by relaxing my grip, I'm able to feel the club head and swing path better. But I really don't know that much about it. All I know is that the results are good enough to improve my game just a bit.

Last winter while hitting into a simulator, I was going through the same swing-as-hard-as-I-can-with-crappy-results exercise. The owner of the facility (not a PGA instructor) offered some advice. He checked my grip and told me to loosen it some. Then he asked me to hit a 100 yard shot with my mid iron using a full, but slowed down swing. I did what was asked and was amazed when the shot went beyond my normal distance (I think it was a 155 yard 6i). I repeated it a few more times and got the same results. With each club I grabbed, same swing, same results.

Unfortunately, when I got to my driver, I started trying to swing out of my shoes again and getting the same, crappy results. And herein lies the problem.

When this slowed-down swing starts to click and I feel I have better control, I can sometimes turn it up just a notch and still make good contact. I'm just not sure I really want to do that. While I understand that better distance is a good thing, I'd trade that for more consistent results any day.

[boogielicious]

8 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

While i have close to no idea of what's happening in my golf swing, much less anyone else's, I can tell when I'm swinging easier and i can tell when the ball goes further. it ain't just feel and it is very real.

What I'm not claiming...

• I'm not using the muscles in my arms to swing the club
• My swing is as good as it can possibly be while I'm doing this
• I don't swing harder with my arms (as well as my body) just before impact
• I have complete control over this and can repeat it any time I want
• this will work with anyone else

What I am claiming is that when my arms have less tension (relaxed), my grip a bit looser and my tempo slower, I get better results. And to take it a bit further, when my ball striking is on during the span of several rounds, those three things are occurring. I can only guess as to why my results are better when I control my tempo and relax my arms and grip. More than likely, by slowing my backswing and the start of my downswing, I am improving my sequencing. And by relaxing my grip, I'm able to feel the club head and swing path better. But I really don't know that much about it. All I know is that the results are good enough to improve my game just a bit.

Last winter while hitting into a simulator, I was going through the same swing-as-hard-as-I-can-with-crappy-results exercise. The owner of the facility (not a PGA instructor) offered some advice. He checked my grip and told me to loosen it some. Then he asked me to hit a 100 yard shot with my mid iron using a full, but slowed down swing. I did what was asked and was amazed when the shot went beyond my normal distance (I think it was a 155 yard 6i). I repeated it a few more times and got the same results. With each club I grabbed, same swing, same results.

Unfortunately, when I got to my driver, I started trying to swing out of my shoes again and getting the same, crappy results. And herein lies the problem.

When this slowed-down swing starts to click and I feel I have better control, I can sometimes turn it up just a notch and still make good contact. I'm just not sure I really want to do that. While I understand that better distance is a good thing, I'd trade that for more consistent results any day.

It's sounds like your approach is helping you get better sequencing. I have a similar feel, but it is more along the lines of letting my hands and the club drop from A4 (the top of the backswing) to A5 (left arm parallel to the ground) in a relaxed way before accelerating. This is a feel my Evolvr instructor gave me. What it helps is getting the downswing to be in proper sequence. If I start too fast on the downswing, my swing would get steep and the path out to in.

[Marty2019]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

It's sounds like your approach is helping you get better sequencing. I have a similar feel, but it is more along the lines of letting my hands and the club drop from A4 (the top of the backswing) to A5 (left arm parallel to the ground) in a relaxed way before accelerating. This is a feel my Evolvr instructor gave me. What it helps is getting the downswing to be in proper sequence. If I start too fast on the downswing, my swing would get steep and the path out to in.

That's a good point.  In my case, the thing I have to constantly correct is coming over the top and casting the club.  Relaxing my hands and wrists, and starting my downswing in a rather deliberate way, helps me stop doing that.   But there's always the question of why.   Why does that help?   What is happening in between relaxing the hands and striking the ball that is causing the good results?   Probably what you said.  

Edited March 8, 2016 by Marty2019

[Dave325]

1 hour ago, boogielicious said:

It's sounds like your approach is helping you get better sequencing. I have a similar feel, but it is more along the lines of letting my hands and the club drop from A4 (the top of the backswing) to A5 (left arm parallel to the ground) in a relaxed way before accelerating. This is a feel my Evolvr instructor gave me. What it helps is getting the downswing to be in proper sequence. If I start too fast on the downswing, my swing would get steep and the path out to in.

Wow, @boogielicious! That is exactly the same issue I have been experiencing, especially with my driver. And, the same advice I got from my Evolvr coach at A4 on my last analysis. Of course, I have a whole lotta other things I am trying to get down from my last trip to Erie. Just yesterday, I noticed that I was tightening my grip at A4, the club shaft went more vertical, sending everything off plane and result was an excessive fade. Then, I relaxed the grip and let the club fall on plane and pause at the top and the result was a dead straight hit with good distance. Of course... There are a lot of other elements that go into it...  Setup, grip and chest position (which Erik fixed), head position, weight forward, etc.

[GolfLug]

Loose arms and wrists in general a good thing, especially for mid/high HCPers. Thinking soft throughout the swing is even better. And no, soft/loose feeling in arms/wrists does not rob you of any dynamic speed/power at all. You are using more muscular force even when you feel loose than you think. Ball flight does not lie.   

I would suggest not try to decode the physics of what is happening too much and only think about keeping the arms 'moving' through impact.

[nabzi]

Are there any drills to practice slower/lose swings at all?

I have the same problem where if I feel like I need to go for a long shot I tense up and come down at the ball so hard I lose 30-40 yards of distance. However, there have been times where I will casually hit the ball so lose and slow and it will fly over 200 yards with a 5 iron. Just cant seem to find consistency when I'm thinking about my swing :(

[Big Lex]

13 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

...Last winter while hitting into a simulator, I was going through the same swing-as-hard-as-I-can-with-crappy-results exercise. The owner of the facility (not a PGA instructor) offered some advice. He checked my grip and told me to loosen it some. Then he asked me to hit a 100 yard shot with my mid iron using a full, but slowed down swing. I did what was asked and was amazed when the shot went beyond my normal distance (I think it was a 155 yard 6i). I repeated it a few more times and got the same results. With each club I grabbed, same swing, same results.

I've had the same experience. And although I didn't extend the quote, I've had the same difficulty extending this exercise to a driver. I think what I was able to accomplish this year, however, is that I was able to carry that loose feeling over into a swing that was a very hard swing, almost as hard as I can swing. I'm not saying people should swing as hard as they possibly can. But I know I was able to swing much harder than I thought and still maintain control.  

[JonMA1]

12 hours ago, boogielicious said:

It's sounds like your approach is helping you get better sequencing. I have a similar feel, but it is more along the lines of letting my hands and the club drop from A4 (the top of the backswing) to A5 (left arm parallel to the ground) in a relaxed way before accelerating. This is a feel my Evolvr instructor gave me. What it helps is getting the downswing to be in proper sequence. If I start too fast on the downswing, my swing would get steep and the path out to in.

I hit the 7i into the field for about an hour tonight. I tried to feel what was happening with my swing and there is a lot going on in the way of compensations - I think. But I tried to maintain the slower tempo and be aware of everything so it'd be easier to repeat. There's too much to go into for this thread, but slower tempo helps. 

 Tonight was the first time I've been able to really practice outside since last fall. I was pretty pleased with the results. Hitting into a 15mph wind, I was getting what I consider my stock distance and then some on most shots.

A bit off-topic, but I do want to mention Evolvr and specifically. I took a two months of lessons this Winter. What might end up being really helpful is that he had me start my backswing with much more weight on my back foot. This makes my downswing feel really long - if that makes sense. I am pretty confident it will help my game this upcoming season.

[colin007]

things are a bit different for me...for me, "loose"="sloppy" in that i feel much more controlled when i have a tight feeling in my arms, chest, and hands. maybe because im flexible and i tend to over swing without even trying.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, colin007 said:

things are a bit different for me...for me, "loose"="sloppy" in that i feel much more controlled when i have a tight feeling in my arms, chest, and hands. maybe because im flexible and i tend to over swing without even trying.

Agree, and I'm not that flexible.

[JonMA1]

5 hours ago, colin007 said:

things are a bit different for me...for me, "loose"="sloppy" in that i feel much more controlled when i have a tight feeling in my arms, chest, and hands. maybe because im flexible and i tend to over swing without even trying.

IMO, whatever helps you play better is important. If there were a one-size-fits-all swing, maybe the game would be easier to learn.

[Lihu]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

IMO, whatever helps you play better is important. If there were a one-size-fits-all swing, maybe the game would be easier to learn.

That's somewhat true, but I feel like LSW really comes pretty close to that universal solution. Actually the only reason why I say "pretty close" is because I don't really know any other methods of learning. I suspect that if I did try other methods I would say extremely close***. The main thing I like is the objectivity you give to your improvements. Those are much more tenable than "feel" based stuff.

 

***I'm not just blindly endorsing Erik and Dave's book, but it really is a pretty decent "manual" for learning golf. He could have named it "Golf for Stupid Monkeys" or something to that effect, but I really enjoy looking at everything objectively, and before this site and the book I didn't really know how.

[JonMA1]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

That's somewhat true, but I feel like LSW really comes pretty close to that universal solution. Actually the only reason why I say "pretty close" is because I don't really know any other methods of learning. I suspect that if I did try other methods I would say extremely close***. The main thing I like is the objectivity you give to your improvements. Those are much more tenable than "feel" based stuff.

 

***I'm not just blindly endorsing Erik and Dave's book, but it really is a pretty decent "manual" for learning golf. He could have named it "Golf for Stupid Monkeys" or something to that effect, but I really enjoy looking at everything objectively, and before this site and the book I didn't really know how.

I won't argue much with this. It's a great book.

I was talking mostly about the mechanics of the swing in my post, but the same can be said about what's in LSW.

I agree with most of the logic behind the practice and course strategy in that book, and try to apply it to my crappy game. But there are plenty of really, really good players who will disagree with some of that logic. If they can play at that level with a different point of view, how can I tell them they're wrong? In the end, there are often different ways to accomplish the same objective.

[Lihu]

3 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I won't argue much with this. It's a great book.

I was talking mostly about the mechanics of the swing in my post, but the same can be said about what's in LSW.

I agree with most of the logic behind the practice and course strategy in that book, and try to apply it to my crappy game. But there are plenty of really, really good players who will disagree with some of that logic. If they can play at that level with a different point of view, how can I tell them they're wrong? In the end, there are often different ways to accomplish the same objective.

Sure, I see your point, but the first few chapters cover the keys and mechanics (and this site adds much more, it is also interactive). What I think I learned is that the swing is a fundamental part of any strategy? The better your swing the better your scoring potential.