Golfing under the influence, should this be moderated?

[JxQx]

What exactly is the argument against it? That their handicap will be artificially low (if you assume them as performance enhancers) or that they are making their handicap higher because it makes their performance worse (sandbagging in a way)? Assuming its the first, if you force them to some how not be able use the substance they are only hurting themselves and if you don't, it still should be fair because they established their handicap that way. The latter of the two is going to be difficult to get rid of because they could always intentionally play bad to sandbag. To me it doesn't really matter.

[Valleygolfer]

58 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Caffeine usually gives people the "jitters" it has a negative effect for the mental game, however I think it speeds up the metabolism and gets your blood flowing better.

Not sure this is a reason to ban tea or coffee.

The article stated all that. It is the masters issue of golf digest. It produced improvements during the study, over average.

[Lihu]

27 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

The article stated all that. It is the masters issue of golf digest. It produced improvements during the study, over average.

I'm pretty sure the same experiment could prove that getting more than 5 hours of sleep before a round can improve your scores as well.

Group 1 gets 4 hours of sleep in a room full of party animals

Group 2 gets 8 hours to sleep in a nice quiet room with sleepy time tea and a small fountain to make some "happy noises" or whatever is peaceful and relaxing.

I'm relatively confident that Group 2 will score better.

We should ban sleep or any herbal tea that helps you sleep as well. . .

[Valleygolfer]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I'm pretty sure the same experiment could prove that getting more than 5 hours of sleep before a round can improve your scores as well.

Group 1 gets 4 hours of sleep in a room full of party animals

Group 2 gets 8 hours to sleep in a nice quiet room with sleepy time tea and a small fountain to make some "happy noises" or whatever is peaceful and relaxing.

I'm relatively confident that Group 2 will score better.

We should ban sleep or any herbal tea that helps you sleep as well. . .

Why don't you read the article. If you want to be nonsensical save it for another thread.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Valleygolfer

[Lihu]

2 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

Why don't you read the article. If you want to be nonsensical save it for another thread.

Could you post a link? I tried to click the screenshot and it was an embedded picture. . .

[Valleygolfer]

57 minutes ago, JxQx said:

What exactly is the argument against it? That their handicap will be artificially low (if you assume them as performance enhancers) or that they are making their handicap higher because it makes their performance worse (sandbagging in a way)? Assuming its the first, if you force them to some how not be able use the substance they are only hurting themselves and if you don't, it still should be fair because they established their handicap that way. The latter of the two is going to be difficult to get rid of because they could always intentionally play bad to sandbag. To me it doesn't really matter.

What if the enhancement was not used during most normal rounds and only used for tournament rounds because someone has realized that they play better?

Just now, Lihu said:

Could you post a link? I tried to click the screenshot and it was an embedded picture. . .

I don't know if it is published yet, I read it off of the electronic subscription page.

[Lihu]

7 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

Why don't you read the article. If you want to be nonsensical save it for another thread.

 

4 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

What if the enhancement was not used during most normal rounds and only used for tournament rounds because someone has realized that they play better?

I don't know if it is published yet, I read it off of the electronic subscription page.

I think I'll just stick with being nonsensical. . .

 

1 hour ago, JxQx said:

What exactly is the argument against it? That their handicap will be artificially low (if you assume them as performance enhancers) or that they are making their handicap higher because it makes their performance worse (sandbagging in a way)? Assuming its the first, if you force them to some how not be able use the substance they are only hurting themselves and if you don't, it still should be fair because they established their handicap that way. The latter of the two is going to be difficult to get rid of because they could always intentionally play bad to sandbag. To me it doesn't really matter.

I agree, and taking the "substance" only during competition rounds or something like that will only make it worse for the golfer in question. Not likely to contribute in a positive manner.

[Valleygolfer]

37 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

I think I'll just stick with being nonsensical. . .

 

I agree, and taking the "substance" only during competition rounds or something like that will only make it worse for the golfer in question. Not likely to contribute in a positive manner.

You have been pretty good at it.... stick to reading other nonsensical information that doesn't support real life scenarios? You will listen to one person's supposed research but ignore other studies?

Not likely? What makes you think so? An average of improvement is 2.5 shots per round according to tested subjects vs placebo. You don't think its "not likely to contribute in a positive manner" for a handicap based club championship? I guess you don't need to score any better. I would consider a serving of caffeine if I was going into a tournament now...

[bkuehn1952]

The USGA adopts the "Anti Doping" protocols of the PGA Tour and LPGA when conducting the US Open and US Women's Open.  They adopt the IGF policy for the US Amateur and Women's Amateur.  Other than that, there appears to be no enforcement against golfing participants using various substances.

The underlying principle of the USGA Handicap system is that each golfer will always do his or her best to make the best shot and return the best score.

From those points, if I think drinking alcohol (or taking some other drug, food or supplement) has no negative affect on my game, then I probably should post those scores.  If I think alcohol (or taking some other drug, food or supplement) hurts my game, then I should not post those scores.

I suspect at this point the USGA does not think there is any legal, non-prescription, drug/chemical "silver bullet" that will give 99% of us an edge in playing golf.  For this reason, there is nothing in the Rules about taking caffeine, alcohol or vitamin C.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

You have been pretty good at it.... stick to reading other nonsensical information that doesn't support real life scenarios? You will listen to one person's supposed research but ignore other studies?

Not likely? What makes you think so? An average of improvement is 2.5 shots per round according to tested subjects vs placebo. You don't think its "not likely to contribute in a positive manner" for a handicap based club championship? I guess you don't need to score any better. I would consider a serving of caffeine if I was going into a tournament now...

I've read studies about how caffeine is bad for playing golf, too.

The study you cited, I have the magazine, but I'll be curious to see how many people were tested, what methods were used, etc.

But no, you can't ban "caffeine."

[Lihu]

5 minutes ago, Valleygolfer said:

You have been pretty good at it.... stick to reading other nonsensical information that doesn't support real life scenarios? You will listen to one person's supposed research but ignore other studies?

Not likely? What makes you think so? An average of improvement is 2.5 shots per round according to tested subjects vs placebo. You don't think its "not likely to contribute in a positive manner" for a handicap based club championship? I guess you don't need to score any better. I would consider a serving of caffeine if I was going into a tournament now...

If the information is available then I would read it, but it goes through my brain where it is filtered and either accepted or rejected.

I have to ask what is your intention of starting this thread? Is it to find people who agree 100% with you regarding playing under the influence of any stimulants or to get honest opinions of other people regarding this subject?

Some of the topics that were discussed in this thread:

GUI (golfing under the influence);

1) Alcohol has little positive effect on a golfers game. I also know that mental game is barely 1% of my game, I have to make assumptions regarding other people in my level of play, but do have concrete examples of people hoping to use beer to improve their game. It didn't, of course.

Mental Game and how it affects our performance;

2) When I'm playing badly it's purely mechanics.

Legal stimulants like caffeine;

3) Caffeine might wake me up in the mornings, but it doesn't help me other than warming me up. I drink espresso and or yerba mate to get my boost, but it doesn't really help my game.

Not reading an article, but it not being available for reading.

4) I did not read the article and have no technical references to look at to support any conclusions I read.

 

The thread sounds suspiciously like a religious push to not allow any sort of stimulants prior to playing golf. I fully respect any and all religions that are against use of artificial stimulants, but I just don't see how it affects a golfers performance to the point where anything but water can be consumed prior to or during a round of golf that will be scored.

[nevets88]

11 minutes ago, iacas said:

I've read studies about how caffeine is bad for playing golf, too.

The study you cited, I have the magazine, but I'll be curious to see how many people were tested, what methods were used, etc.

But no, you can't ban "caffeine."

 Doh. I always have coffee before or during a round in the morning.

[Mr. Desmond]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Caffeine usually gives people the "jitters" it has a negative effect for the mental game, however I think it speeds up the metabolism and gets your blood flowing better.

Not sure this is a reason to ban tea or coffee.

Link:

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/coffee-helps-golf-score

Edited March 23, 2016 by Mr. Desmond

[Fourputt]

42 minutes ago, Lihu said:

 

Mental Game and how it affects our performance;

2) When I'm playing badly it's purely mechanics.

 

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that those poor mechanics may be directly caused by being in a bad place mentally.  Get straight mentally and the mechanical issues go away.  Now what percentage is which?

I contend that they are inextricably related to each other, inseparable, and that a specific percentage cannot be quantified to either factor because of that composite relationship.

[pumaAttack]

14 minutes ago, Fourputt said:

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that those poor mechanics may be directly caused by being in a bad place mentally.  Get straight mentally and the mechanical issues go away.  Now what percentage is which?

I contend that they are inextricably related to each other, inseparable, and that a specific percentage cannot be quantified to either factor because of that composite relationship.

Some people definitely separate the two: mental game and ball striking.  But they are most definitely intertwined.  

Having a poor mental space can cause shakiness, loss of fine motor skills, etc.  Having those issues mentally WILL affect your ball striking skills.

[JxQx]

3 hours ago, Valleygolfer said:

What if the enhancement was not used during most normal rounds and only used for tournament rounds because someone has realized that they play better?

If that happens their handicap will eventually reflect it. Most handicapped tournaments I've been in the rewards/prizes are higher in the lower handicap flights which kind of pushes people to want to have a lower handicap and not "sand bag".

[Lihu]

2 hours ago, Fourputt said:

Yet you refuse to acknowledge that those poor mechanics may be directly caused by being in a bad place mentally.  Get straight mentally and the mechanical issues go away.  Now what percentage is which?

I contend that they are inextricably related to each other, inseparable, and that a specific percentage cannot be quantified to either factor because of that composite relationship.

It's not that I refuse to believe anything or not.

I'm just stating that if you have a reasonable swing, it should not be affected that easily by mental state. For example, if I am looking over a large ravine. I'm not thinking about hitting into the far side of the ravine, I'm thinking about my swing mechanics and the club I should use to get to my target.
 

1 hour ago, pumaAttack said:

Some people definitely separate the two: mental game and ball striking.  But they are most definitely intertwined.  

Having a poor mental space can cause shakiness, loss of fine motor skills, etc.  Having those issues mentally WILL affect your ball striking skills.

Possibly a bit, but "definitely" is a very strong word for their relationship.

 

2 hours ago, Mr. Desmond said:

Link:

http://www.golfdigest.com/story/coffee-helps-golf-score

Thanks, but it's not clear who the 12 male golfers were in the study and the conditions of the 36 holes and the weather etc. Not sure how conclusive is that study in a general sense?

 

47 minutes ago, JxQx said:

If that happens their handicap will eventually reflect it. Most handicapped tournaments I've been in the rewards/prizes are higher in the lower handicap flights which kind of pushes people to want to have a lower handicap and not "sand bag".

Yes, exactly.

For example, I feel like my playing is pretty crappy, but it's always the same crappiness. I don't depend upon a great putting day or a great chipping day or a great ball striking day for anything. I just hit the ball and hope for the best.

[Fourputt]

11 minutes ago, Lihu said:

It's not that I refuse to believe anything or not.

I'm just stating that if you have a reasonable swing, it should not be affected that easily by mental state. For example, if I am looking over a large ravine. I'm not thinking about hitting into the far side of the ravine, I'm thinking about my swing mechanics and the club I should use to get to my target.
 

Possibly a bit, but "definitely" is a very strong word for their relationship.

I guess that all depends on what you call a "reasonable" swing.  You say that you have a "crappy" swing, but I don't see that.  You are a single digit index so you must be dong something right.  By your grading, my swing would be atrocious, yet my index was near your level just 5 or 6 years ago.  I still hit good shots when I can keep my mental focus.  When that slips, so does my swing.  I virtually never hit a good shot when my mind is not in the swing.  So where is the dividing line between mental focus and swing mechanics?  

I have to say that in 40 years in the game, this is the first place I've ever heard anyone have the temerity to say that the mental part of golf is "insignificant".