Using the flag stick

[bkuehn1952]

You arrive near the green to find the flagstick has either blown down, was not replaced properly and fell over or the prior group just didn't bother to replace it.  You are playing a stroke play event.

The flagstick is positioned perfectly to assist you in stopping your chip near the hole.  Do you replace the flagstick or use it as a backstop?

Now let's say you are in a match.  Your opponent walks up and replaces the flagstick.  You want it to remain where it was.  Does your opponent have to lay the flagstick down where it was?  What if he is away and the stick is a problem.  He moves it.  Once he plays do you have the option to lay it down again?

[Martyn W]

8 hours ago, bkuehn1952 said:

You arrive near the green to find the flagstick has either blown down, was not replaced properly and fell over or the prior group just didn't bother to replace it.  You are playing a stroke play event.

The flagstick is positioned perfectly to assist you in stopping your chip near the hole.  Do you replace the flagstick or use it as a backstop?

Now let's say you are in a match.  Your opponent walks up and replaces the flagstick.  You want it to remain where it was.  Does your opponent have to lay the flagstick down where it was?  What if he is away and the stick is a problem.  He moves it.  Once he plays do you have the option to lay it down again?

If you leave the flagstick lying on the ground, and your ball strikes it, you incur the general penalty under 17-3a: This Rule does not just apply if the ball is on the PG

17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:

a.

The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;

[saevel25]

does this decision counter 17-3?

Quote

17-3/3 

Ball Strikes Flagstick Lying on Ground

Q.Generally, the player's ball must not strike the flagstick when removed from the hole (Rule 17-3). What is the ruling in the following situations:

• (a) A player putts too strongly and his ball strikes the flagstick which has been removed by someone in his match or group and placed on the ground behind the hole.
• (b) A player plays his second shot to the green and the ball strikes the flagstick, which had been blown down by the wind and was lying on the ground.
• (c) A player, not believing he can reach the green which is occupied by the preceding match or group, plays his second shot at a par-5 hole and the ball rolls onto the green and strikes the flagstick which has been removed from the hole and placed on the ground by someone in the preceding match or group.

A. (a) The player incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3a

    (b)&(c) No penalty is incurred. Rule 17-3a is not applicable in either case. It applies only when the flagstick has been removed with the player's authority or prior knowledge by someone in the player's match or group.

I am not sure what the ruling would be if you intentionally leave the flagstick on the ground when it wasn't removed by you or someone in your group. 

[bkuehn1952]

35 minutes ago, Martyn W said:

If you leave the flagstick lying on the ground, and your ball strikes it, you incur the general penalty under 17-3a: This Rule does not just apply if the ball is on the PG

17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant

The player's ball must not strike:

a.

The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;

Except the flagstick was not "removed" by any of the players.  I believe hitting the flagstick under those circumstances does not result in a penalty (Decision 17-3/3).

[Martyn W]

7 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

Except the flagstick was not "removed" by any of the players.  I believe hitting the flagstick under those circumstances does not result in a penalty (Decision 17-3/3).

I know that the decision cites two examples of where no penalty is incurred, but in the circumstance in your scenario I would consider the act of leaving the flagstick in place as a backstop so contrary to the spirit of the game I would have a hard time not penalizing the player, If not under 17-3 then either 1-2 or in a pinch 1-4.

[Rulesman]

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-10

[saevel25]

13 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!decision-23,d23-1-10

The flag is not a loose impediment or a movable obstruction. 

Quote

Flagstick

The "flagstick" is a movable straight indicator, with or without bunting or other material attached, centered in the hole to show its position. It must be circular in cross-section. Padding or shock absorbent material that might unduly influence the movement of the ball is prohibited.

You have this, 

Quote

When a ball is in motion, an obstruction that might influence the movement of the ball, other than equipment of any player or the flagstick when attended, removed or held up, must not be moved.

In this situation the flagstick was not attended, but it was removed. The opponent can move that flagstick, even when the ball is in motion, with out penalty. 

 

[Groucho Valentine]

Interesting situation. Without knowing the rules on something like that, i would have just assumed to play as normal. Its not like you get penalized for hitting the flagstick from off the green from a 150 yards away in that situation, so whats the difference from 15 yards? I would think if the flag out of the hole without your groups intention, its just rub of the green. And if you ball is stopped by the stick or even ricochets into the hole, then so be it. 

[Phil McGleno]

38 minutes ago, saevel25 said:

The flag is not a loose impediment or a movable obstruction.

Pretty sure the flag stick is a movable obstruction when it is not being attended or in the hole.

[Rulesman]

A flagstick matches the definition of an immovable obstruction. It does not match any exception.

Of course, it is not unusual for things to satisfy two (or more) definitions.

[iacas]

3 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

A flagstick matches the definition of an immovable obstruction. It does not match any exception.

You sure about that one?

[Rulesman]

52 minutes ago, iacas said:

You sure about that one?

Tell me a) where it doesn't or b) where it does.

[David in FL]

21 minutes ago, Rulesman said:

Tell me a) where it doesn't or b) where it does.

Surely you meant moveable obstruction, no?

[Rulesman]

Oops !!!!!   

 

Thanks guys 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Rulesman

[DrvFrShow]

Bottom line is that if you're about 100 yds from the hole. You see the flagstick had blown over and you hit your shot. It goes on the green and hits the flagstick. Stops or channeled into the hole. It could be in a position where it kept your ball from going in, or put it in an even worse position. So no penalty. After all, no one in the interest of pace of play is going to walk 100 yds up to the hole, insert the flag, then walk back to their ball and hit.

If you're on the fringe of the green or pin high in the rough and the flagstick was blown over earlier or left on the surface of the putting green, put the flag stick in the hole. I'd say draw the line at about 25 yds. or if you have to traverse the green to get to your ball. I'd probably want the flag put in correctly because of an OCD thing.

[Dormie1360]

The OP's question was actually a question on this year's MGA Quiz.  The Metropolitan Golf Association is not a ruling body, but FWIW, they said no penalty.

2. In stroke play, the preceding group has left the flagstick lying on the putting green nearby the hole. A lies two just short of the putting green and B lies two on the putting green. They agree to leave the flagstick where it is as it could assist them. A’s chip shot is stopped by the flagstick but B’s putt comes up short of it. A takes one putt and B takes two more putts to complete the hole.

The result of the hole is: A) A scores 4 and B scores 5.
                                       B) A scores 6 and B scores 7.
                                       C) A scores 6 and B scores 5.
                                       D) Both A and B are disqualified

Answer:

#2 A    D17-3/3

[gblackwell]

On May 27, 2016 at 4:59 PM, Dormie1360 said:

The OP's question was actually a question on this year's MGA Quiz.  The Metropolitan Golf Association is not a ruling body, but FWIW, they said no penalty.

2. In stroke play, the preceding group has left the flagstick lying on the putting green nearby the hole. A lies two just short of the putting green and B lies two on the putting green. They agree to leave the flagstick where it is as it could assist them. A’s chip shot is stopped by the flagstick but B’s putt comes up short of it. A takes one putt and B takes two more putts to complete the hole.

The result of the hole is: A) A scores 4 and B scores 5.
                                       B) A scores 6 and B scores 7.
                                       C) A scores 6 and B scores 5.
                                       D) Both A and B are disqualified

Answer:

#2 A    D17-3/3

D may be the correct answer, but I dont's see how 17-3/3 justifies it since it was the preceding group that removed the flag. 17-3/3 is quite clear on this.

[saevel25]

18 minutes ago, gblackwell said:

D may be the correct answer, but I dont's see how 17-3/3 justifies it since it was the preceding group that removed the flag. 17-3/3 is quite clear on this.

The correct answer is A as it was stated by @Dormie1360.

D17-3/3 is the equitable ruling they are referring to with this case.