When is someone a scratch golfer?

[Golfingdad]

23 minutes ago, MrFlipper said:

I hear what you are saying, in theory I agree, but you take the guy who is scratch at the 5400 yard muni and put him on the black tees at Torrey South and I'd be willing to wager he wouldn't shoot the course rating, or even be close. Conversely, the scratch from the black tees at Torrey South would probably tear up the short muni, but he'd still have to shoot 5 under par or so to shoot the course rating, so he'd have to putt decently.

Way better odds of option 2 happening by far I would think, but I've never played with a scratch from Torrey South back tees. I have played with scratches from shorter munis, many are older guys who can't hit it out of their shadow, on short courses they are great but any distance demand kills them.

I have a feeling you are confusing "scratch" with "shooting par" here.

 

24 minutes ago, MrFlipper said:

, the scratch from the black tees at Torrey South would probably tear up the short muni, but he'd still have to shoot 5 under par or so to shoot the course rating, so he'd have to putt decently.

Yes, but by definition, the "scratch guy from 5400 muni" is already shooting that 5 under par score so ... ???

[GolfLug]

8 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

I have a feeling you are confusing "scratch" with "shooting par" here.

 

Yes, but by definition, the "scratch guy from 5400 muni" is already shooting that 5 under par score so ... ???

I would have to agree. If they can shoot a 65 on the muni (even if they can barely hit outside of their shadow) they can shoot 77 at a monster. They will have the 12 extra shots to make up for the distance.

[Hardspoon]

44 minutes ago, MrFlipper said:

I hear what you are saying, in theory I agree, but you take the guy who is scratch at the 5400 yard muni and put him on the black tees at Torrey South and I'd be willing to wager he wouldn't shoot the course rating, or even be close. Conversely, the scratch from the black tees at Torrey South would probably tear up the short muni, but he'd still have to shoot 5 under par or so to shoot the course rating, so he'd have to putt decently.

Way better odds of option 2 happening by far I would think, but I've never played with a scratch from Torrey South back tees. I have played with scratches from shorter munis, many are older guys who can't hit it out of their shadow, on short courses they are great but any distance demand kills them.

If this is true in general for a selection of golfers (putting aside some specific outlier case), it means that the courses aren't rated correctly.

The only cases I could think of where this could possibly occur would be if someone played the same course so many times that they were gaining two or three strokes per round because of "course knowledge" (that's really rare), OR if a course is set up perfectly to play to someone's strengths (ie, every hole is a dogleg right or something ridiculous). 

 

[BuckeyeNut]

I didn't read the entire thread, but a golfer is a scratch golfer when their golf course HC is 0.   

The index is not relevant because the very same golfer could be a 3HC or a -2 on any given course depending on the course rating and slope of the course they are playing that day..  

 

 

 

[iacas]

1 minute ago, BuckeyeNut said:

The index is not relevant because the very same golfer could be a 3HC or a -2 on any given course depending on the course rating and slope of the course they are playing that day..

Really? Please show me a situation where a 0.1 index can be either of those things.

[BuckeyeNut]

On 7/29/2016 at 6:01 PM, iacas said:

Really? Please show me a situation where a 0.1 index can be either of those things.

Iacas,

To me, a scratch golfer gets ZERO strokes on the golf course he is playing that day.   The course HC will vary from course to course so it depends on the course being played.    I guess a 0.1 is a bad example because this golfer will be close to a zero HC on a lot of courses.   

[No Mulligans]

24 minutes ago, BuckeyeNut said:

Iacas,

To me, a scratch golfer gets ZERO strokes on the golf course he is playing that day.   The course HC will vary from course to course so it depends on the course being played.    I guess a 0.1 is a bad example because this golfer will be close to a zero HC on a lot of courses.   

Don't forget the rounding in the couse handicap calculation.  A  0.1 Hi will have a course handicap of zero on all courses.

[iacas]

On July 29, 2016 at 6:59 PM, BuckeyeNut said:

I didn't read the entire thread, but a golfer is a scratch golfer when their golf course HC is 0.

And to be a 0 course handicap… the golfer's handicap index has to be really close to 0. It's simple math.

On July 29, 2016 at 6:59 PM, BuckeyeNut said:

The index is not relevant because the very same golfer could be a 3HC or a -2 on any given course depending on the course rating and slope of the course they are playing that day.

The index is incredibly relevant, because only it - and the slope - determine the course handicap.

You're wrong that the same golfer can be a 3 HC and a -2. Again, simple math: you multiply the handicap index by a positive number (a fraction of slope/113).

- 0.2 * 144/113 = - 0.25
+0.5 * 94/113 = 0.42

1 hour ago, BuckeyeNut said:

To me, a scratch golfer gets ZERO strokes on the golf course he is playing that day. The course HC will vary from course to course so it depends on the course being played. I guess a 0.1 is a bad example because this golfer will be close to a zero HC on a lot of courses.

Actually a 0.1 handicap index will be a 0 on every course.

In fact, at a 0.4, it takes a slope of 142 to get to a 1 course handicap (it's 0.503… which rounds to 1).

The maximum slope rating is 155, so…

0.49 = x * 155/113
x = 0.49 * 113/155
x = 0.357

So, any handicap of 0.3 or lower is guaranteed to have a 0 course handicap.

C'mon, @BuckeyeNut… this stuff is basic math. By your definition, a scratch golfer is someone who is a 0.4 to a +0.4 for most courses with a reasonable slope, or at most, anyone between a 0.3 and a +0.3 on any course and any set of tees.

[MasonAsher2014]

My idea of a scratch golfer is someone who can shoot level par or less most of the time (60%>) on a course rated 72.0 or higher

[iacas]

28 minutes ago, MasonAsher2014 said:

My idea of a scratch golfer is someone who can shoot level par or less most of the time (60%>) on a course rated 72.0 or higher

So some PGA Tour players don't qualify?

[MasonAsher2014]

Just now, iacas said:

So some PGA Tour players don't qualify?

Hmmm. Now that I think about it I'm going to change it to: a person that can match or break the course rating at least 40% of the time. CR 77, score 77 - scratch. Just getting a 0.0 or + handicap on the round.

[Golfingdad]

7 minutes ago, MasonAsher2014 said:

Hmmm. Now that I think about it I'm going to change it to: a person that can match or break the course rating at least 40% of the time. CR 77, score 77 - scratch. Just getting a 0.0 or + handicap on the round.

By definition, people meet or exceed their handicaps only about a quarter of the time.  Somebody who shoots the course rating or better 40% of the time is going to be a + handicap.  That is a pretty rigid definition of a scratch golfer.

[saevel25]

6 minutes ago, Golfingdad said:

By definition, people meet or exceed their handicaps only about a quarter of the time.  Somebody who shoots the course rating or better 40% of the time is going to be a + handicap.  That is a pretty rigid definition of a scratch golfer.

An uknown fact about the handicap system is that 20%. yet it makes sense in that it keeps people from routinely shooting way under their handicap in matches. 

 

[MasonAsher2014]

This is a good topic, although I don't believe there is a correct answer. It's all about what you perceive to be scratch.

[iacas]

14 minutes ago, MasonAsher2014 said:

This is a good topic, although I don't believe there is a correct answer. It's all about what you perceive to be scratch.

I don't understand that kind of thing. I don't understand this thread.

Scratch has a definition. The most variance is a stroke or half a stroke, but basically… if you're 0.4 to +0.4, roughly, you're a scratch golfer.

No other definition really makes sense.

[MasonAsher2014]

Just now, iacas said:

I don't understand that kind of thing. I don't understand this thread.

Scratch has a definition. The most variance is a stroke or half a stroke, but basically… if you're 0.4 to +0.4, roughly, you're a scratch golfer.

No other definition really makes sense.

Agree.

Not everyone will agree with that though. Some may think shooting a 70 (-2) on a course rated 67.0 would make a person scratch.

I agree with your definition.

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, MasonAsher2014 said:

Agree.

Not everyone will agree with that though. Some may think shooting a 70 (-2) on a course rated 67.0 would make a person scratch.

I agree with your definition.

I suppose I could see how they might think that… but yeah, there's a pretty clear and easy definition. This topic should have been two posts long.

[MasonAsher2014]

5 minutes ago, iacas said:

I suppose I could see how they might think that… but yeah, there's a pretty clear and easy definition. This topic should have been two posts long.

I agree that there is a definition of it. I think by "definition" I meant someone's own personal viewpoint on it.