Irons: going from “sweeping” to “digging”

[Kalnoky]

Has anyone here converted from sweeping/picking to taking divots? How did you do it? What swing thought did you use?

My instructor pointed out I am losing a lot of distance by releasing my power too early. He wants me to hit down on the ball and take a divot after the ball. Per his observation, my backswing to the top is good, flexibility is great, posture is good, grip is good. The problem is in the downswing: in the last split-second I lean away and release early, hitting the ball really low, resulting in very high shots. I do not take a divot - I graze the grass. I was able to play OK golf this way, good enough to break 100 consistently (and often in the low 90s) but I realize I am not going get any better unless I make the change he wants.

Has anyone successfully made this change, and learned to take divots? Many thanks in advance.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Kalnoky
grammar

[Jeremie Boop]

9 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

Has anyone here converted from sweeping/picking to taking divots? How did you do it? What swing thought did you use?

My instructor pointed out I am losing a lot of distance by releasing my power too early. He wants me to hit down on the ball and take a divot after the ball. Per his observation, my backswing to the top is good, flexibility is great, posture is good, grip is good. The problem is in the downswing: in the last split-second I lean away and release early, hitting the ball really low, resulting in very high shots. I do not take a divot - I graze the grass. I was able to play OK golf this way, good enough to break 100 consistently (and often in the low 90s) but I realize I am not going get any better unless I make the change he wants.

Has anyone successfully made this change, and learned to take divots? Many thanks in advance.

 

 

While I agree that leaning away and releasing early are not good, you could still end up sweeping/picking the ball after fixing them. I wouldn't focus on trying to take a divot, just focus on fixing those flaws. It's best to focus on one thing at a time, though. Also, if you don't have one yet, post up some videos of your swing in the Member Swing thread so people with knowledge can give you some drills and tips on what you can do. 

Filming Your Golf Swing

Member Swings

 

[CarlSpackler]

Did your instructor give you any recommendations or homework? Their job is not (only) to point out what is wrong, but to give you drills, etc. to fix it. When you go to the doc, they don't simply look at you and say that you're sick and send you on your way? They give you medicine that you typically have to mortgage your house to pay for.

[Kalnoky]

2 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

Did your instructor give you any recommendations or homework? Their job is not (only) to point out what is wrong, but to give you drills, etc. to fix it. 

Yes, It's a good question. We started w/ "lead with your hands" and when I wasn't able to do that, we went through several drills that didn't take for me either. The one drill he left me with was "turn your right shoulder through the ball". I had some success doing it this way... That's what I intend to practice today.

I'm curious if others had to overcome this tendency, what was the drill you used, or the swing thought you used to beat it. 

 

[CarlSpackler]

2 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

Yes, It's a good question. We started w/ "lead with your hands" and when I wasn't able to do that, we went through several drills that didn't take for me either. The one drill he left me with was "turn your right shoulder through the ball". I had some success doing it this way... That's what I intend to practice today.

I'm curious if others had to overcome this tendency, what was the drill you used, or the swing thought you used to beat it.

I honestly don't give much thought to whether I take a divot or not. I try to focus on the 5 Simple Keys (not sure how to make the trademark thingy ) and let the chips fall where they may. Leading with your hands would be a Key #3 issue, but it might be a result of something else that you are doing wrong. What were the other drills if you don't mind me asking?

[Kalnoky]

13 minutes ago, CarlSpackler said:

I honestly don't give much thought to whether I take a divot or not. I try to focus on the 5 Simple Keys (not sure how to make the trademark thingy ) and let the chips fall where they may. Leading with your hands would be a Key #3 issue, but it might be a result of something else that you are doing wrong. What were the other drills if you don't mind me asking?

Yes, we used an alignment rod behind the ball to encourage me to come in steeper, and also we practiced chipping with the tee in front of the ball (making the tee disappear). He also tried to impress the "wide, narrow, wide" thought into my head. I somehow found ways to defeat all of these by leaning back and accomplishing the drill.. haha.. my instructor was a bit perplexed!

My biggest problem with golf is, I think too much. I sometimes think the really good athletes can internalize instructions very easily. Maybe it's just going to take me a lot of repetition to undo the habit.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Kalnoky

[skeedawg]

I'm a sweeper with everything down to the 8/9 iron and lower. If i take a divot with much above a 7i, then it's usually because I hit it fat, and boy do I feel it. Sometimes I wonder if knowing the fatshots are bad gets in my head, and keeps me from taking the divot after the ball. Lately there have been two occasions where I struck a ball really well, online or with a nice draw...well I felt the divot (or what i thought was a fatshot) and almost immediately expected something bad was happening. I shook my head both times and just thought, wow that was cool.

Telling your brain to do something physical and having it work out is a neat trick. I really think there's some mind/body thing at work there as I've struggled with it as well. My swing is a lot more consistent and I know when it's on/off most times, but sometimes I'm just baffled at how what I wanted in my mind to happen just fails me physically. 

[CarlSpackler]

32 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

Yes, we used an alignment rod behind the ball to encourage me to come in steeper, and also we practiced chipping with the tee in front of the ball (making the tee disappear). He also tried to impress the "wide, narrow, wide" thought into my head. I somehow found ways to defeat all of these by leaning back and accomplishing the drill.. haha.. my instructor was a bit perplexed!

My biggest problem with golf is, I think too much. I sometimes think the really good athletes can internalize instructions very easily. Maybe it's just going to take me a lot of repetition to undo the habit.

It's amazing the compensations we can make to pass many drills. This is why I don't like the drilling method to teach the golf swing. I had a teacher who made me hit 100s of balls with my feet together to teach me not to sway. I did that fine and actually hit nice shots, but when I stepped back to the ball with a normal stance, you would think I was an Elvis impersonator. 

I agree with @Jeremie Boop that posting a My Swing thread here would be a big help. My guess is that there is something going on WAY before you get to impact that is causing your problem.

[Liko81]

3 hours ago, Kalnoky said:

Has anyone here converted from sweeping/picking to taking divots? How did you do it? What swing thought did you use?

My instructor pointed out I am losing a lot of distance by releasing my power too early. He wants me to hit down on the ball and take a divot after the ball. Per his observation, my backswing to the top is good, flexibility is great, posture is good, grip is good. The problem is in the downswing: in the last split-second I lean away and release early, hitting the ball really low, resulting in very high shots. I do not take a divot - I graze the grass. I was able to play OK golf this way, good enough to break 100 consistently (and often in the low 90s) but I realize I am not going get any better unless I make the change he wants.

Has anyone successfully made this change, and learned to take divots? Many thanks in advance.

 

 

I'm learning now. I am still more a sweeper for mid-irons and for pitch shots (meaning I have to be really careful with body position; turfs and tops are still the bane of my short game as is not committing to the shot and backing off the downswing), but for the 8-9 and any full wedge shots, I'm taking more divots. The benefit, especially with the short clubs, is a flight path that nails the ball to the green where it lands due to the extra backspin of hitting down on it.

First off, for standing up on the downswing, my swing thought is "head still". Other people will probably flame me to a crunchy crisp for that, but the mentality, if tops and turfs are a problem for you, is that your spine angle should not change until the ball is gone and you're straightening into your follow-through. Your backswing and downswing should feel like you're rotating around your spine, winding yourself up like coiling the mainspring of a watch. Then as you transition to the downswing, you're releasing all that coiled-up energy through the same plane of that coiled mainspring. This puts the clubface at impact right back where it was at address. The actual mechanics aren't quite so linear, but this is the mentality that minimized my turfs and tops.

Then, to go from a sweep to a sod-cutter, the change for me was really simple. My sweep starts with the ball centered in my stance and the clubhead just behind, and I focus on a dimple at the very center of the ball (aim small, miss small; combination quiet eyes/American Sniper mentality). To switch to a sod-cutter, all I had to do was move the ball one half-diameter rearward in my stance, move the clubhead back an equal amount to make room (but keep my hands in the same position), and then focus on a blade of grass right on the front edge of the ball. Because I'm grounding the club further back, it will naturally swing deeper as I come back through (my natural sweeper tendencies will cause a slight lift to make sure I don't turf, and I just use that to make sure I don't go too deep). By focusing on the front of the ball, because my head is the top of the axis of my swing plane, I keep the same swing plane I had with the ball centered (if I look at the ball I risk moving that plane to the outside).

The result of both of these tweaks is a ball heading downrange in a straight, consistent path, and a coaster-sized brown sandy patch in the center of my stance. Close the face just slightly (which really just squares it back up to the target line at the more rearward impact point) and it's going down the target line. If I'm feeling really adventurous, I move it another half-ball backward with the same overall mentality, and the result is a very professional-looking low baby draw. Or a top. Which is why I have to be feeling really on to try this on the course.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by Liko81

[Jeremie Boop]

14 minutes ago, Liko81 said:

I'm learning now. I am still more a sweeper for mid-irons and for pitch shots (meaning I have to be really careful with body position; turfs and tops are still the bane of my short game as is not committing to the shot and backing off the downswing), but for the 8-9 and any full wedge shots, I'm taking more divots. The benefit, especially with the short clubs, is a flight path that nails the ball to the green where it lands due to the extra backspin of hitting down on it.

First off, for standing up on the downswing, my swing thought is "head still". Other people will probably flame me to a crunchy crisp for that, but the mentality, if tops and turfs are a problem for you, is that your spine angle should not change until the ball is gone and you're straightening into your follow-through. Your backswing and downswing should feel like you're rotating around your spine, winding yourself up like coiling the mainspring of a watch. Then as you transition to the downswing, you're releasing all that coiled-up energy through the same plane of that coiled mainspring. This puts the clubface at impact right back where it was at address. The actual mechanics aren't quite so linear, but this is the mentality that minimized my turfs and tops.

Then, to go from a sweep to a sod-cutter, the change for me was really simple. My sweep starts with the ball centered in my stance and the clubhead just behind, and I focus on a dimple at the very center of the ball (aim small, miss small; combination quiet eyes/American Sniper mentality). To switch to a sod-cutter, all I had to do was move the ball one half-diameter rearward in my stance, move the clubhead back an equal amount to make room (but keep my hands in the same position), and then focus on a blade of grass right on the front edge of the ball. Because I'm grounding the club further back, it will naturally swing deeper as I come back through (my natural sweeper tendencies will cause a slight lift to make sure I don't turf, and I just use that to make sure I don't go too deep). By focusing on the front of the ball, because my head is the top of the axis of my swing plane, I keep the same swing plane I had with the ball centered (if I look at the ball I risk moving that plane to the outside).

The result of both of these tweaks is a ball heading downrange in a straight, consistent path, and a coaster-sized brown sandy patch in the center of my stance. Close the face just slightly (which really just squares it back up to the target line at the more rearward impact point) and it's going down the target line. If I'm feeling really adventurous, I move it another half-ball backward with the same overall mentality, and the result is a very professional-looking low baby draw. Or a top. Which is why I have to be feeling really on to try this on the course.

 

Just curious, so you are saying your ball position is now further back than the center of your stance?

[Kalnoky]

24 minutes ago, Liko81 said:

all I had to do was move the ball one half-diameter rearward in my stance, move the clubhead back an equal amount to make room (but keep my hands in the same position), and then focus on a blade of grass right on the front edge of the ball.

 

I'm going to try taking the ball position back a smidgen, thanks for the suggestion.

[Hacker James]

Greg Norman was a fairly good ball striker and he was a "picker".

[Liko81]

30 minutes ago, Jeremie Boop said:

Just curious, so you are saying your ball position is now further back than the center of your stance?

Just a touch, yes. If you were looking at my stance and didn't have a tape measure, or my sight picture, you probably couldn't tell. That's an important point to make; too far back and you'll either top it every time or you'll pull your swing plane to the outside to get the bottom of your swing that far back. This is a very small adjustment in ball position and in swing depth, while changing virtually nothing else from a standard pick/sweep, to give you a shallow dig.

[saevel25]

Weight (pressure) more under the front foot at impact. 

Keep a steadier head throughout the swing. 

Hard to not hit the ball first when you do these two things. 

[natureboy]

5 hours ago, Kalnoky said:

hitting the ball really low, resulting in very high shots. I do not take a divot - I graze the grass.

The bolded bit seems contradictory? What are you saying?

My understanding from what you wrote is that you are tending to fall onto your back foot so that the bottom of the arc of your swing is behind the ball (away from the target), possibly with the intent to 'help the ball up'. This is tending to result in a lot of low thin shots caught off the bottom of the club.

I would agree that a better pivot to your lead side will help put the low point in front of the ball where it belongs with irons, but that doesn't mean you have to stop 'sweeping' and start 'digging'. I think 'digging' would be the wrong way to go unless that's the only way for you to hit low enough (unlikely). You can still 'sweep' you just need to contact the grass in front of (and after) you contact  the ball. Contact with the ball on the inclined plane of the fast-moving clubhead is usually enough to deflect the leading edge downward enough to scrape some grass and turf. You don't need to consciously 'dig'.

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by natureboy

[Kalnoky]

 

7 minutes ago, natureboy said:

The bolded bit seems contradictory? What are you saying?

 

Yes, I can see how that is contradictory. My apologies.

My instructor says I hit the ball on the very lowest part of the ball possible. The result is a very high ball flight.   

[Natural Patrick]

2 hours ago, Liko81 said:

I'm learning now. I am still more a sweeper for mid-irons and for pitch shots (meaning I have to be really careful with body position; turfs and tops are still the bane of my short game as is not committing to the shot and backing off the downswing), but for the 8-9 and any full wedge shots, I'm taking more divots. The benefit, especially with the short clubs, is a flight path that nails the ball to the green where it lands due to the extra backspin of hitting down on it.

First off, for standing up on the downswing, my swing thought is "head still". Other people will probably flame me to a crunchy crisp for that, but the mentality, if tops and turfs are a problem for you, is that your spine angle should not change until the ball is gone and you're straightening into your follow-through. Your backswing and downswing should feel like you're rotating around your spine, winding yourself up like coiling the mainspring of a watch. Then as you transition to the downswing, you're releasing all that coiled-up energy through the same plane of that coiled mainspring. This puts the clubface at impact right back where it was at address. The actual mechanics aren't quite so linear, but this is the mentality that minimized my turfs and tops.

Then, to go from a sweep to a sod-cutter, the change for me was really simple. My sweep starts with the ball centered in my stance and the clubhead just behind, and I focus on a dimple at the very center of the ball (aim small, miss small; combination quiet eyes/American Sniper mentality). To switch to a sod-cutter, all I had to do was move the ball one half-diameter rearward in my stance, move the clubhead back an equal amount to make room (but keep my hands in the same position), and then focus on a blade of grass right on the front edge of the ball. Because I'm grounding the club further back, it will naturally swing deeper as I come back through (my natural sweeper tendencies will cause a slight lift to make sure I don't turf, and I just use that to make sure I don't go too deep). By focusing on the front of the ball, because my head is the top of the axis of my swing plane, I keep the same swing plane I had with the ball centered (if I look at the ball I risk moving that plane to the outside).

The result of both of these tweaks is a ball heading downrange in a straight, consistent path, and a coaster-sized brown sandy patch in the center of my stance. Close the face just slightly (which really just squares it back up to the target line at the more rearward impact point) and it's going down the target line. If I'm feeling really adventurous, I move it another half-ball backward with the same overall mentality, and the result is a very professional-looking low baby draw. Or a top. Which is why I have to be feeling really on to try this on the course.

 

Wow! Half of a Diameter? Your good.

[natureboy]

2 minutes ago, Kalnoky said:

Yes, I can see how that is contradictory. My apologies.

My instructor says I hit the ball on the very lowest part of the ball possible. The result is a very high ball flight.   

So you're catching it a little on the upswing, but not so bad that you're thinning it regularly. Where's the ball position relative to your lead foot and how wide is your stance for a mid (5 or 6) iron?