Jump to content
IGNORED

Leaving the Ball on the Green in a Position to Help?


Note: This thread is 1756 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

Player A's ball is on green. In our club it has been established that player who is off green, player B, may ask player A to "leave it there". My question is, does player A have to mark ball. In other words leaving it there and with a mark. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Decision 22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted
Q.In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A.No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1

  • Upvote 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • iacas changed the title to Leaving the Ball on the Green in a Position to Help?
  • Moderator

We had a long discussion of this issue in another thread, in particular as it relates to the pro tours.  Based on my reading of the rules, if Player A should mark it if it could assist his fellow-competitor, AND if he can mark it without delaying play.  If Player B simply goes ahead and plays while Player A is walking up, its OK.   As @Asheville say, if Player B requests the ball be left, and Player A agrees, they've both violated the rule.  It sounds as if your club has accepted this violation of the rules.

And here's the link to the previous thread:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • 2 weeks later...

Maybe have a look at this decision.

3-4/1

Competitor Not Given Opportunity to Lift Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor

Q.In stroke play, A's ball lies near the hole in a position to assist B, whose ball lies off the putting green. A states his intention to lift his ball under Rule 22-1. B mistakenly believes that A does not have the right to lift his ball and plays before A has an opportunity to lift his ball. What is the ruling?

A.B is disqualified under Rule 3-4 as he intentionally denied A's right to lift his ball. It is irrelevant that B did so in ignorance of the Rules.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Moderator

@6Aces, in this case I believe the difference is communication.  Once player A states his intention, player B is required to wait.  If Player A doesn't say anything, its a different matter.

  • Upvote 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
On 9/24/2016 at 8:07 PM, DaveP043 said:

@6Aces, in this case I believe the difference is communication.  Once player A states his intention, player B is required to wait.  If Player A doesn't say anything, its a different matter.

I'll add to my previous post.  What appears to happen on the pro tour is that Player A quite consciously dawdles in getting to his ball, leaving player B plenty of time to hit his shot, potentially taking advantage of Player A's ball on the green.  There no overtly stated intent to collude in giving Player B a potential advantage, but it really seems like that's what they're trying to do at times.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

So if I am reading this correctly, B can not ask A to leave it there. But, if A decides to clean his spikes or towel off, B may hit without penalty. Seems pretty much the same without the formal question being asked, could you please leave it there. Wonder how that applies to 2 and 4 man competitions?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
24 minutes ago, Fizbo said:

So if I am reading this correctly, B can not ask A to leave it there. But, if A decides to clean his spikes or towel off, B may hit without penalty. Seems pretty much the same without the formal question being asked, could you please leave it there.

A referee could require that A mark it before B plays, assuming A is in position to do so without unduly delaying play. (Decision 22/7)

25 minutes ago, Fizbo said:

 Wonder how that applies to 2 and 4 man competitions?

In match play, you may mark and lift your ball (whether its on the green or not) if you if you think your ball could assist your opponent.  I didn't find a requirement for your opponent to wait for you to mark it, however.  In a fourball match, you may require your opponent to mark his ball if it is in position to assist his partner (your other opponent).  (Decision 30-3f/11).  In that case, I believe that he does have to wait.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

I had a situation happen last week where my ball was in a location that would act as bumper for a FC (the ball was about 1" - 2" to the front and left of the cup.  As I attempted to walk onto the green to mark my ball the FC seemed to rush his putting stroke.  His ball hit my ball on the right side, bounced off of it and into the hole.  It was a cool shot but if my ball wasn't there he'd have rolled well past the hole.  

I'm not sure if he was aiming for the hole or my ball but having my ball there gave him a much greater margin of error.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

  • Moderator
4 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I had a situation happen last week where my ball was in a location that would act as bumper for a FC (the ball was about 1" - 2" to the front and left of the cup.  As I attempted to walk onto the green to mark my ball the FC seemed to rush his putting stroke.  His ball hit my ball on the right side, bounced off of it and into the hole.  It was a cool shot but if my ball wasn't there he'd have rolled well past the hole.  

If your FC was on the putting green, and his ball hit your ball which was also on the putting green, he incurs a two-stroke penalty (Rule 19-5a).  If he was off the green, it was just a good (and lucky) shot..

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

If your FC was on the putting green, and his ball hit your ball which was also on the putting green, he incurs a two-stroke penalty (Rule 19-5a).  If he was off the green, it was just a good (and lucky) shot..

He was off the green on the fringe

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

17 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 I didn't find a requirement for your opponent to wait for you to mark it,

I would say 2/3 applies. He would be denying your right to mark it and would lose the hole in equity.

Link to post
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I didn't find a requirement for your opponent to wait for you to mark it, however.  

I agree.  If one had stated that one intended to mark the ball and the competitor played any way, 2/3 may apply. In all the decisions it seems like proceeding after a competitor has requested an action is a breach.  Until something is said, a competitor may proceed.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

23 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I agree.  If one had stated that one intended to mark the ball and the competitor played any way, 2/3 may apply. In all the decisions it seems like proceeding after a competitor has requested an action is a breach.  Until something is said, a competitor may proceed.

For clarity, 2/3 is a matchplay decision; it would be 'opponent', not 'competitor'. R3-4 is the equivalent in strokeplay.

  • Upvote 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Moderator
1 hour ago, Martyn W said:

I would say 2/3 applies. He would be denying your right to mark it and would lose the hole in equity.

 

33 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I agree.  If one had stated that one intended to mark the ball and the competitor played any way, 2/3 may apply. In all the decisions it seems like proceeding after a competitor has requested an action is a breach.  Until something is said, a competitor may proceed.

Thanks for helping further my golf rules education.  I thought that he should be required to wait, but couldn't find the specific rule.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

39 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Thanks for helping further my golf rules education.  I thought that he should be required to wait, but couldn't find the specific rule.

I looked as well, so don't feel bad.  It didn't seem right that in stroke play I wouldn't have the right to mark so that's why I posted here.  Thanks to all for their time pointing me to the right rule. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Note: This thread is 1756 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • Support TST Affiliates

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    Whoop
    SuperSpeed
    FlightScope Mevo
    Use the code "iacas" for 10% off Mevo and the code "iacasjun21" for 10% off SuperSpeed.
  • Posts

    • On days when I'm hitting my driver well this is my play too. Otherwise I'll usually hit 4i a tad left of the aim point denoted by the white lines on the left fairway. Though honestly I set the bar of "playing driver well" a little low and block a driver into the water too often 😬
    • I agree with your message, as I thought the same in response; however, I don’t agree with attacking the person, but ideas or statements that he holds are fair game in my eyes. Not trying to be a mod, so don’t “get it twisted,” as young ones say; just expressing my opinion of partial agreement. 
    • Meh. They could have had a bit more fun with it. I would have preferred the "Cleveland River Fire" to honor when the Cuyahoga River actually caught fire. 12 times. 
    • Notes from the Wisconsin trip: Long game is as good as it has ever been. I lost 2 balls over 6 rounds, which is incredibly good for me. I'm struggling to think of a time when I hit the ball better, and I don't think I have for that many rounds. The challenge is going to be keeping it up, because... Short game and putting needs a lot of work. It makes sense, because I've been working a ton on my long game to get it better. That worked paid off, but I need to get my putting and short game better. For putting, I need to work on speed control a lot more. I also need to focus more on less face movement when the stroke gets longer. I also need to work on bead, because I miss my line on putts inside of 10 feet way too often. For short game, I need to find a chipping technique that works. I need to review some of the COVID practice stuff on chipping to get that technique better. My distance control with chips needs to be better. Pitching was not good at Sand Valley, but I think that's more due to the turf than anything. Still could use some tuning up there. Practice ratios for me for the next couple of months will probably be 15% long game, 50% putting, and 35% short game. Unless something bad rears its head in my long game, which is absolutely possible.
    • This is a very stupid post. @boogielicious pretty much explained to you why it’s stupid. Moreover, your logic in keeping the name, because you hope something offends you, so that you won’t make the same mistake, is some of the most far-fetched BS attempt at logic I’ve seen. It’s like you’re trying to compare the name change to Civil War museum artifacts; these are not the same thing. I’m all for preserving history, even dark and stained history, to do what you’re advocating. The museum is a place of history, and if done correctly, does not glorify nor honor past sins, but does remind us of the past wrongs and the progress we’ve made. However, changing a ball club’s name is not the same thing. You don’t keep a factually incorrect, ignorant, and offensive and derogatory term as your ball club’s name so you can “remind everyone of past wrongs so we can avoid them.” Again, faulty logic and piss poor analogy (which you poorly drew in the first place). 
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. chriswuk
      chriswuk
      (30 years old)
    2. Gero
      Gero
      (78 years old)
    3. nettscore
      nettscore
      (50 years old)
    4. RandMart3
      RandMart3
      (69 years old)

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...