Leaving the Ball on the Green in a Position to Help?

[Fizbo]

Player A's ball is on green. In our club it has been established that player who is off green, player B, may ask player A to "leave it there". My question is, does player A have to mark ball. In other words leaving it there and with a mark. 

[Asheville]

Decision 22/6 Competitor Requests That Ball in Position to Assist Him Not Be Lifted
Q.In stroke play, B's ball lies just off the putting green. A's ball lies near the hole in a position to serve as a backstop for B's ball. B requests A not to lift his ball. Is such a request proper?

A.No. If A and B agree not to lift a ball that might assist B, both players are disqualified under Rule 22-1

[DaveP043]

We had a long discussion of this issue in another thread, in particular as it relates to the pro tours.  Based on my reading of the rules, if Player A should mark it if it could assist his fellow-competitor, AND if he can mark it without delaying play.  If Player B simply goes ahead and plays while Player A is walking up, its OK.   As @Asheville say, if Player B requests the ball be left, and Player A agrees, they've both violated the rule.  It sounds as if your club has accepted this violation of the rules.

And here's the link to the previous thread:

 

[6Aces]

Maybe have a look at this decision.

3-4/1

Competitor Not Given Opportunity to Lift Ball Assisting Fellow-Competitor

Q.In stroke play, A's ball lies near the hole in a position to assist B, whose ball lies off the putting green. A states his intention to lift his ball under Rule 22-1. B mistakenly believes that A does not have the right to lift his ball and plays before A has an opportunity to lift his ball. What is the ruling?

A.B is disqualified under Rule 3-4 as he intentionally denied A's right to lift his ball. It is irrelevant that B did so in ignorance of the Rules.

[DaveP043]

@6Aces, in this case I believe the difference is communication.  Once player A states his intention, player B is required to wait.  If Player A doesn't say anything, its a different matter.

[DaveP043]

On 9/24/2016 at 8:07 PM, DaveP043 said:

@6Aces, in this case I believe the difference is communication.  Once player A states his intention, player B is required to wait.  If Player A doesn't say anything, its a different matter.

I'll add to my previous post.  What appears to happen on the pro tour is that Player A quite consciously dawdles in getting to his ball, leaving player B plenty of time to hit his shot, potentially taking advantage of Player A's ball on the green.  There no overtly stated intent to collude in giving Player B a potential advantage, but it really seems like that's what they're trying to do at times.

[Fizbo]

So if I am reading this correctly, B can not ask A to leave it there. But, if A decides to clean his spikes or towel off, B may hit without penalty. Seems pretty much the same without the formal question being asked, could you please leave it there. Wonder how that applies to 2 and 4 man competitions?

[DaveP043]

24 minutes ago, Fizbo said:

So if I am reading this correctly, B can not ask A to leave it there. But, if A decides to clean his spikes or towel off, B may hit without penalty. Seems pretty much the same without the formal question being asked, could you please leave it there.

A referee could require that A mark it before B plays, assuming A is in position to do so without unduly delaying play. (Decision 22/7)

25 minutes ago, Fizbo said:

 Wonder how that applies to 2 and 4 man competitions?

In match play, you may mark and lift your ball (whether its on the green or not) if you if you think your ball could assist your opponent.  I didn't find a requirement for your opponent to wait for you to mark it, however.  In a fourball match, you may require your opponent to mark his ball if it is in position to assist his partner (your other opponent).  (Decision 30-3f/11).  In that case, I believe that he does have to wait.  

[newtogolf]

I had a situation happen last week where my ball was in a location that would act as bumper for a FC (the ball was about 1" - 2" to the front and left of the cup.  As I attempted to walk onto the green to mark my ball the FC seemed to rush his putting stroke.  His ball hit my ball on the right side, bounced off of it and into the hole.  It was a cool shot but if my ball wasn't there he'd have rolled well past the hole.  

I'm not sure if he was aiming for the hole or my ball but having my ball there gave him a much greater margin of error.  

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, newtogolf said:

I had a situation happen last week where my ball was in a location that would act as bumper for a FC (the ball was about 1" - 2" to the front and left of the cup.  As I attempted to walk onto the green to mark my ball the FC seemed to rush his putting stroke.  His ball hit my ball on the right side, bounced off of it and into the hole.  It was a cool shot but if my ball wasn't there he'd have rolled well past the hole.  

If your FC was on the putting green, and his ball hit your ball which was also on the putting green, he incurs a two-stroke penalty (Rule 19-5a).  If he was off the green, it was just a good (and lucky) shot..

[newtogolf]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

If your FC was on the putting green, and his ball hit your ball which was also on the putting green, he incurs a two-stroke penalty (Rule 19-5a).  If he was off the green, it was just a good (and lucky) shot..

He was off the green on the fringe

[Martyn W]

17 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

 I didn't find a requirement for your opponent to wait for you to mark it,

I would say 2/3 applies. He would be denying your right to mark it and would lose the hole in equity.

[bkuehn1952]

18 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I didn't find a requirement for your opponent to wait for you to mark it, however.  

I agree.  If one had stated that one intended to mark the ball and the competitor played any way, 2/3 may apply. In all the decisions it seems like proceeding after a competitor has requested an action is a breach.  Until something is said, a competitor may proceed.

[Martyn W]

23 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I agree.  If one had stated that one intended to mark the ball and the competitor played any way, 2/3 may apply. In all the decisions it seems like proceeding after a competitor has requested an action is a breach.  Until something is said, a competitor may proceed.

For clarity, 2/3 is a matchplay decision; it would be 'opponent', not 'competitor'. R3-4 is the equivalent in strokeplay.

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Martyn W said:

I would say 2/3 applies. He would be denying your right to mark it and would lose the hole in equity.

 

33 minutes ago, bkuehn1952 said:

I agree.  If one had stated that one intended to mark the ball and the competitor played any way, 2/3 may apply. In all the decisions it seems like proceeding after a competitor has requested an action is a breach.  Until something is said, a competitor may proceed.

Thanks for helping further my golf rules education.  I thought that he should be required to wait, but couldn't find the specific rule.

[newtogolf]

39 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

 

Thanks for helping further my golf rules education.  I thought that he should be required to wait, but couldn't find the specific rule.

I looked as well, so don't feel bad.  It didn't seem right that in stroke play I wouldn't have the right to mark so that's why I posted here.  Thanks to all for their time pointing me to the right rule.