Constant handicap arguments

[Groucho Valentine]

 

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

So she shoots her handicap, you're two over yours, and you lose.  Happens all the time.

Especially at the time, i was so accustomed to playing in medal events that the fact that i beat somebody by 6 strokes and still lost never sat well with me. 

[DaveP043]

18 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Oh no,  Im sorry. I gave her two a side. 4 total. She said she was a 3 or 4 handicap. Which i believed. I don't remember what the course rating was, but she probably shot her handicap if she honest about her handi. But i shot one over and lost all three ways. She took some junks too. 

 

10 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

Especially at the time, i was so accustomed to playing in medal events that the fact that i beat somebody by 6 strokes and still lost never sat well with me. 

So you're saying this was par-70 and you shot 71, you gave her 4 strokes all day, beat her by 6, and still lost?  Or are you mis-typing, and you actually shot 73?  So confusing.  But no matter what the facts in this devastating loss, in an individual match, with honest handicaps, nobody really has an edge.

[Groucho Valentine]

1 minute ago, DaveP043 said:

 

So you're saying this was par-70 and you shot 71, you gave her 4 strokes all day, beat her by 6, and still lost?  Or are you mis-typing, and you actually shot 73?  So confusing.  But no matter what the facts in this devastating loss, in an individual match, with honest handicaps, nobody really has an edge.

It was devastating. Im pretty sure the par on that course is 71.  2 of the 3 birdies i got that day were on her stroke holes to boot.  

[natureboy]

2 hours ago, Groucho Valentine said:

These kinds of things are a big reason why i don't get into handicap games. They usually favor the higher handicap to begin with, and when they want more then sandbag to get it, it leads to drama like what paininthenuts mentioned. Playing strait up matches and games if the players are within 3-4 strokes of each other seems reasonable, but few do it. 

I disagree. Because of their more consistent play, the lower HCP has the consistent advantage in individual matches.

When you get a large group of players, however, the odds of one of the many higher handicap players having a very good net day is higher because their scoring distributions tend to be more spread out. That's why tournaments are usually flighted.

Or were you talking about games where HCPs are adjusted based on play / results during the match?

Check out some of the articles on Dean Knuth's site: http://www.popeofslope.com/

[jsgolfer]

The group I'm in doesn't play with strokes at all.  Everyone is in the 6-10 range.  We do the teams so they are close handicap wise and then take the best two gross scores on each hole.  best way to play, no strokes.

[Groucho Valentine]

10 minutes ago, natureboy said:

I disagree. Because of their more consistent play, the lower HCP has the consistent advantage in individual matches.

When you get a large group of players, however, the odds of one of the many higher handicap players having a very good net day is higher because their scoring distributions tend to be more spread out. That's why tournaments are usually flighted.

Or were you talking about games where HCPs are adjusted based on play / results during the match?

Check out some of the articles on Dean Knuth's site: http://www.popeofslope.com/

I was mostly thinking of those group games with points. Like Blitz or Quota. I think its unevenly difficult for someone with my handicap to beat someone with yours (for example) in those formats. I have to shoot better than my handicap to win usually. 

[natureboy]

2 minutes ago, Groucho Valentine said:

I was mostly thinking of those group games with points. Like Blitz or Quota. I think its unevenly difficult for someone with my handicap to beat someone with yours (for example) in those formats. I have to shoot better than my handicap to win usually. 

Don't know anything about those games. I agree shooting better than your handicap is pretty unlikely.

[DaveP043]

12 minutes ago, natureboy said:

Don't know anything about those games. I agree shooting better than your handicap is pretty unlikely.

For every single player, no matter what their handicap.  Something like 20 to 25% of the time is typical.  

[Pretzel]

27 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

For every single player, no matter what their handicap.  Something like 20 to 25% of the time is typical.  

It is unlikely to shoot better than your handicap. Exactly how unlikely this is can be found in the table here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

The reason it seems harder for a higher handicap to win in a group points game like that is because it has the same issue as non-flighted tournaments. The higher handicappers have better odds of shooting a score that is exceptionally below their handicap than the lower handicap golfers. I went in-depth on this idea of how much more likely high handicap golfers are to win unflighted net games in my post here: 

Flighting is the way to go to combat the issue with the larger spreads of scores as handicaps get higher, but it can be impractical at times depending on the scenario. The proper way to approach it is to just kiss any entry fee goodbye when you enter into a large unflighted event that relies on net scores in some way, and consider it a donation in exchange for a good time.

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, Pretzel said:

It is unlikely to shoot better than your handicap. Exactly how unlikely this is can be found in the table here: http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html

You should remember that the tables you reference are for the TWO lowest scores.  A similar table, for a single score, is in Appendix E in the USGA Handicap Manual

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14410

[Hazsa]

4 hours ago, CarlSpackler said:

I don't know about it working perfectly. There is no perfect system when players of different skill levels compete, but the USGA formula is the best there is IMO. The winner of our golf league every year was the person who improved the most because they were consistently shooting below their handicap. These people wanted the HCI to remain fixed all year and never update. Those who were slipping didn't fare so well and wanted HCI to updated after every round. They also wanted their handicap to reset at the beginning of every year. We had sandbaggers who were better players that seemed to 3 putt if their opponent on a particular hole was already in their pocket. They could take an extra stroke or two to pad their handicap and still get points for winning the hole, so we switched to a Modified Stableford scoring system instead of matches. Besides, it was hard to arrange matches with people travelling and whatnot. People didn't like that because they could actually lose points on a particular night, so they lobbied to switch to a straight Stableford where you couldn't lose points. The downside with that is that the person who showed up the most is the winner.

I don't know what the solution is. I always like to see things flighted where lower handicap are competing against other lower HC players. Same for mid and high handicap players. We didn't have many players in our league, so we couldn't do that.

From my limited understanding of your HC system (which is based on what I've read on this forum) it does seem to make more sense than here in the UK. I must have played 50 times this year, but only the 3 competitions I played in counted towards my HC, which doesn't seem quite right to me.

[Pretzel]

8 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

You should remember that the tables you reference are for the TWO lowest scores.  A similar table, for a single score, is in Appendix E in the USGA Handicap Manual

http://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/Handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14410

My mistake, I didn't notice the fine print (I just had googled "Odds of Exceptional Score Golf" to find a table, since I didn't remember where it was located on the USGA site). I suppose in this case that table would be more directly applicable to multi-day tournaments than it would be to an individual round.

[paininthenuts]

Following my original thread, it all started again yesterday. Whilst setting up the score card before we teed off, my friend declared he was playing off two shots less than his official handicap. I asked why, and he said that he had played well on Monday (how odd). He asked me what I was going to play off, and I replied that I was going to play off of my official handicap, and if I had a high score I would put my card in. I tried to explain to him that this is what handicaps are about, and to bastardize the system makes a mockery of handicaps. We agreed to disagree !! 

[RH31]

39 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Following my original thread, it all started again yesterday. Whilst setting up the score card before we teed off, my friend declared he was playing off two shots less than his official handicap. I asked why, and he said that he had played well on Monday (how odd). He asked me what I was going to play off, and I replied that I was going to play off of my official handicap, and if I had a high score I would put my card in. I tried to explain to him that this is what handicaps are about, and to bastardize the system makes a mockery of handicaps. We agreed to disagree !! 

Ha! We never have anybody volunteer to play at a lower handicap. Sometimes, players do get cut a shot or two by the handicap chairman. Sometimes, we play off of the trending handicaps as well.

The constant bickering, bitching, cheating on handicaps that my group goes through is a real pain in the ass!

[paininthenuts]

1 hour ago, RH31 said:

Ha! We never have anybody volunteer to play at a lower handicap. Sometimes, players do get cut a shot or two by the handicap chairman. Sometimes, we play off of the trending handicaps as well.

The constant bickering, bitching, cheating on handicaps that my group goes through is a real pain in the ass!

Your absolutely right, and this is exactly why no individual should be able to muck around with their own handicap. Perhaps it should be a rule that every member HAS TO hand in each card after every round, and this 3/4 handicap stuff should be abolished

[CarlSpackler]

12 minutes ago, paininthenuts said:

Your absolutely right, and this is exactly why no individual should be able to muck around with their own handicap. Perhaps it should be a rule that every member HAS TO hand in each card after every round, and this 3/4 handicap stuff should be abolished

I have no issues if someone wants to play to a lower handicap than they actually have. If a twenty handicap is feeling bold and wants to play straight up, I'm good with that. 

[RH31]

18 hours ago, paininthenuts said:

Your absolutely right, and this is exactly why no individual should be able to muck around with their own handicap. Perhaps it should be a rule that every member HAS TO hand in each card after every round, and this 3/4 handicap stuff should be abolished

When I first started playing(the '80's), that's exactly how it was. We turned in our card to the pro shop and they entered our scores. The only way players could adjust back then was to dump shots on the course or "forget" to turn in their card.

Now anybody can enter a score from practically anywhere. The pro shop at my course entertains the gripes back and forth a little bit, but really has no control over handicaps in the long run.

Handicap cheating and the associated griping  are some of the most distasteful things to me about the game of golf at the club level.

 

[newtogolf]

16 minutes ago, RH31 said:

When I first started playing(the '80's), that's exactly how it was. We turned in our card to the pro shop and they entered our scores. The only way players could adjust back then was to dump shots on the course or "forget" to turn in their card.

Now anybody can enter a score from practically anywhere. The pro shop at my course entertains the gripes back and forth a little bit, but really has no control over handicaps in the long run.

Handicap cheating and the associated griping  are some of the most distasteful things to me about the game of golf at the club level.

 

My home club requires we submit at least 50% of our score cards that we post for handicap.  The cards must be signed by at least one of your playing partners.  

Handicaps, even when someone doesn't intentionally cheat can be a poor reflection of their golfing abilities.  We played with a guy in MB this weekend that was a 20 handicap and shot 2 rounds in the low 90's and 2 rounds in the low 80's.  He plays a lot of golf but prefers to have fun over grinding to achieve low scores so he doesn't play to 100% of his ability during most of his rounds which results in higher scores and a higher handicap.  

By definition some might call him a sandbagger but he doesn't play for money and doesn't enter tournaments so it doesn't benefit him, he just doesn't care.